We were Gonzaga before Gonzaga was anything good
- Thread starter libertychamp
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Zags are elite. Been an Ellie program since 1999. To say Tulsa was Gonzaga before Gonzaga worked in 2000... not any more. I think now you may be able to say Tulsa was Loyola before Loyola.
We made the safe choice... not the best choice when we replaced Buzz...
We let the players pick their coach to keep a mass exodus from happening and we have never recovered.
We let the players pick their coach to keep a mass exodus from happening and we have never recovered.
Long time ago. We will need a dynamic hire if we want to get back to the Tubby-Self days!!!!
Go TU!!!
Go TU!!!
The biggest mistake in 2000 was Self telling Judy that Norm was his pick for the new coach instead of Billy since he felt he owed Norm for being with him at ORU in tough times. Billy should have thrown his hat in too but deferred to Norm, so he got the assistant spot at Illinois and showed why he was the Nation's best recruiter at the time. If we had gotten Billy instead of Buzz and John, the roster would have been stacked. But Billy's other personal difficulties might have surfaced here before long too.
We decided to play football.
And we still haven’t decided to deal with turf wars, donors, expenses, and revenue generating opportunities in a mature sophisticated way.
Who is coach and who they recruit and how we measure on court success through wins is a consequence of those decisions, not tactics to cover them up. It’s a fools errand.
And we still haven’t decided to deal with turf wars, donors, expenses, and revenue generating opportunities in a mature sophisticated way.
Who is coach and who they recruit and how we measure on court success through wins is a consequence of those decisions, not tactics to cover them up. It’s a fools errand.
Judy had never really done a big time national coaching search and the people advising her had no clue. So the blind were leading the blind.. that led to Burns being hired instead of Coker.. and eventually the Buzz/Phillips debacle.
It worked in 2010 as well. In 2000, Gonzaga was just getting started as TU hit it's peak. By 2003, Tulsa finished a 23 year run that included 18 post-season appearances -- 13 NCAA appearances with three Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, plus two NIT championships.
Gonzaga is almost to year 23, starting back in 1999 when they made the regional final in Dan Monson's second year. He took the money grab and left. Enter Mark Few, who took the Zags to two straight Sweet 16's in his first two years. They then lost in the first or second round over the next four seasons before making another Sweet 16. They still weren't an elite program yet, but they were getting there.
The key for Gonzaga was that Mark Few never left. It would be like Bill Self never leaving TU. Due to Few staying, he's been able to sustain the success and put Gonzaga on an elite level that Tulsa never reached, playing in the national final twice in the past five years.
The other thing that worked in the Zags favor was the internet. During most of Tulsa's run, there was no internet and certainly no social media.
He means two things I assume. First the internet’s free content makes the program accessible to recruits nationwide. That’s wasn’t true in 1985 and the number of kids on the internet was really really low in 95. Fast forward to 2001 and the end of the TU run before that takes off for many of our recruits. But he also means that Gonzaga was able to monetize internet and social media to add revenue. And take other actions to put Gonzaga on a firm footing with renewable funding that keeps the program stable and Few in place. Something TU, for whatever reason beyond a couple of egos on campus and off, refuses to do.
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People like to say we were Gonzaga before Gonzaga was Gonzaga but that’s just so assuage hurt feelings. If Self had stayed it’s possible that it could have been true but it’s not. They got Mark Few to make that his destination job and since he got there in 1999 they have more tournament appearances and more tournament wins that in TU’s entire history going back to their first appearance in the 50s. To become Gonzaga or the TU of myth we need to find our Coach K or Denny Crum or Mark Few, until that happens every hire will be a crap shoot with as many misses as hits.
I don’t remember who said it, but I read here once that people like Gonzaga because it’s fun to say. People used to like Tulsa because it’s fun to say backwards.
So the Gonzaga team read this thread and decided to play like we did this year?
No, national media actually compared Tulsa and Gonzaga back in the day. If Few had made the same decision that Self made Gonzaga would not be Gonzaga. The same could be said for TCU and football. Patterson made a decision to stay and could have left for bigger money and bigger programs but did not. TU ponied up $1,000,000 per year to keep Self but he wanted a Big 10 program so he left. Few stayed in a small program in a small conference and has shown what can happen. Self has shown what can happen when you chase the money and now has a lifetime contract with Kansas at $5.4 million per year. in 2019 Few was getting $2.2 per year.
Your Self/Few comparison regarding life time income may turn into a tortoise and hare comparison real quick.
Maybe but we are talking 20 years ago, not tomorrow. That being said Gonzaga does not have the financial resources that KU has.
I was commenting that if you are out of a job for the rest of your life for NCAA sanctions, people who stay employed because they follow the rules will typically pass you in lifetime earnings. Assuming Self actually did something wrong and there is evidence to prove that.
You should no better, you shouldn't make a comment like that.
That kind of comment is no longer acceptable in today's super sensitive world. You could cause mental anguish to a female or someone who identifies as a female.
Stop it!
First I identify as male and it causes me anguish.
Also we have a crossfire board, so take it over there.
Second there are two Adam Morrisons, the one before that game and the one after. Really he didn't change but the world's view of him did.
I use to use that as an example and compare it to almost the same identical situation that Duke found themselves in versus Kentucky. The difference is championship caliber. You saw zero break down of Hurley, Grant, and Latiner. They walked to coach k knowing he would draw up a play and they would win because time was left on the clock.
Morrison couldn't handle the idea that his dream was threatened. He threw a fit and conceded the game with time left on the clock. His teammates saw it and it meant they were beaten.
Difference in mentality. Difference in outcome.
Finally we had a chance at that run, if Self stays or probably if we don't hire Buzz. Buzz's borrowed shoes story and cup of coffee here started the stumble. We haven't been back since.
I’ve never heard of the guy, but King of Queens was at it’s high point when he played so I must have just missed him.
Self would have never stayed very long if he hadn’t gone to Illinois. Tulsa can’t afford to pay for coaches like Self. Maybe in the beginning, like we did with Self. But any really good coach with great success at Tulsa is going to demand more than we can pay.
But Wichita and ORU can? We need a better sugar daddy than Kaiser apparently. We need that Koch / Hobby Lobby money.
I love when one guy reacts badly somehow our entire society of 320M people is threatened. It is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Men were men back when Bob Hurley was a badass. Hilarious.
This is why when comments are made that anyone on this board could coach so and so team to a championship, I just roll my eyes.
Has nothing to do with being a "man".
It has everything to do with being a winner.
The situations were damn near identical. Duke never gave up because there was time on the clock, Morrison decided Gonzaga had lost as soon as the other team hit the shot.
To put it in a movie term's, Bobby Hurley et al had the "I didn't hear no bell" mentality of Rocky. They got up and fought for the win. Grant Hill through a bomb of a pass, Duke got an ok but not great shot. When that ball went up every Duke player thought it was going in.
Adam Morrison as the team leader had a quitters mentality, there was time left on the clock and his team is picking him up off the floor, carrying him to the bench to go over the play. He never really tried to make a move or effect the play, Gonzaga still got a decent shot. Nobody thought they were going to make it.
One team set the table for the win, the other team collapsed. The difference is the mentality and confidence.
I have seen it in 12 year old girls and 50 year old men, some have the drive and the will, some don't, lots of people have talent but what decides champions and also rans is the difference in mentality.
He messed up and gets to live with it forever. It isn't the fall of society like you old blokes think it is.
What?
Who said that. Nevada commented about a kid who was pretty much a consensus best player that year. He was a highly rated recruit coming in to their school. One of the reasons no one really remembers him is that play he was never the same after.
How does me mentioning using that play the whole country watched multiple times versus possibly the most famous play in Duke basketball history in the same situation as an example for kids of the difference in winning and losing mentalities advocating the world coming to an end?
Do you remember that game? UCLA made an epic come back there were like four turnovers by Gonzaga in the closing seconds including the final one that led to the eventual game winner that involved Morrison. UCLA was down like 17 or 18 points at half.
So obviously UCLA had a "I don't hear no bell mentality" that included a guy who shot 60% free throws making both of a one and one after Gonzaga fouled him with 19 seconds left, forced a turnover in a scramble and hit the basket.
Here is a link to the video:
The important part is just before the 2:00 min mark. You can watch Morrison look at the score and clock. Look at him and tell me you think Gonzaga has any chance at winning that game. He literally gives up with time on the clock.
It sucks for him, he never recovered but the truth is he never had the necessary mentality. Neither did Chris Webber. All that was required was the pressure to expose it. I firmly believe that's something instilled in the kids when they first play. We play to the whistle, we play to the buzzer, we work.
Here is Duke:
Around 2:40 but honestly the whole 6 mins is pretty much a good watch. At 2:50 you can see the ridiculous shot made over Laettner (their Morrison) and how before the ball is through the net he is calling a time out. The Duke bench is shown, you can see Bobby Hurley get his clock cleaned. They want a foul, they see the basket, they're not happy. But look at them none of them, literally zero, think the game is over, because they know it's not and you play to buzzer. Duke wins.
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