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Vindman

TUMe

I.T.S. Legend
Dec 3, 2003
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With all the talk about Trump firing the Lt. Colonel and his brother, am I correct in assuming that they are still in the military and will be reassigned to the Pentagon or similar posting. Also I assume that there will not be, and should not be, any penalty on their pension.
 
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With all the talk about Trump firing the Lt. Colonial and his brother, am I correct in assuming that they are still in the military and will be reassigned to the Pentagon or similar posting. Also I assume that there will not be, and should not be, any penalty on their pension.
Yeah I'm not sure on that. They both are being reassigned back to the Army, and Alexander will go to the Pentagon. I'm not sure if the Pentagon will be where his brother gets reassigned. But they will be hard pressed to get promotions or desired assignments while Trump is in office. You can be assured of that. I believe promotions will affect their pensions.
 
Certainly promotions or the lack thereof will effect their pension. Also the branches get thinner at the top of the tree. Not every Lt. Col. makes Bird Col. His chances obviously damaged.

Most people don't go through a career without a setback or two, either in the Army or civilian life.
 
Minimizing Trump's petty vindictiveness against people standing on principle and telling the truth might be ok if it were one or two guys. The downside for Americans is that Trump has effectively cleansed the federal government of people who are loyal to the Constitution instead of loyal to him. The long line for former senior officials including generals McMaster and Kelly, Gary Cohn who left after Charlottesville, Tillerson, Yates, Bolton, McGahn, etc. etc deprives us of expertise and integrity the country badly needs. Even worse, his base does not respect or even want expertise, honesty, or principle, only abject loyalty to him personally--as the Senate has just demonstrated.

Or as Trump spiritual advisor Paula White put it, "Defying President Trump is fighting against the hand of God."
 
Suddenly WATU thinks Bolton is a model of expertise and integrity...
 
The title of this thread is Vindman, not all people who Trump has dismissed in three years. The press, which loves overstating everything has said Trump fired V. The last time I heard, being fired means you lost your job. Vindman was reassigned to, I believe, the Pentagon. Vindman will continue to make around $110k a year, which is more than unemployment. No one guaranteed V that he would finish his career at the White House as an expert on the country he came from.

He got a bad review from his next higher. It was said he leaked. The Democrats and the press have a problem with Trump. He is rude, loud, and not always honest. His hero is Andrew Jackson who had a similar personality was a Democrat. But there is one fact you can't get away from: He is the President. Vindman was a member of his staff. No one can say that as the head of the Executive Branch he can't pick who he wants on his staff. The Lt. Col still has a job.

Now because Trump is Trump he made a mistake of talking about this issue. Popular with his base but not most people including me. If you must say something just say he was reassigned. Most of us in our careers, whether in the military but more likely as civilians know not to go around publicly criticizing our bosses. You do so at your own peril.

If he is at the Pentagon, he will find he is a medium size fish in an enormous pond.
 
WATU defended McCabe and Comey if my memory is correct.

I think the last three years have shown that the DOJ as well as the FBI are in fact very political. The notion of those being non-political entities ended long ago.
 
The verdict has been delayed. It will be interesting to see what the judge does. Nothing stops him/her from saying 7 years or 9 for that matter.

My own opinion is that Trump is behaving illogically. (Not the first time)
Won in the Senate, check
Won in Appeals Court. Iowa was a disaster for the Dems. New Hampshire has Biden and Warren going South. Biden is in deep hurt.

Relax with a couple of Big Macs. Go play golf.
But no, he has to talk this Stone case up. Got to have attention even if it is bad.
 
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Agreed. Since Trump's arrival (the last three years) the DOJ become considered a political entity in the service of the president. It started with Comey and McCabe becoming subjects of political retribution and attacks after disagreeing with Trump just as the others listed above. Actually it started before that when Trump claimed a Federal judge dishonestly ruled against him because he was of Mexican descent.

Sessions was highly partisan but at least stood up for principle by recusing himself. We'll never see that happen again--who would want to stand for the public humiliation that Trump continually heaped on him? How out of date.

As for Vindman, Trump has already asked the military to look into punishing him for insubordination plus fired his brother for his sins of honesty.

Have to admit, however, the effort to normalize Trump here is impressively tenacious.

WATU defended McCabe and Comey if my memory is correct.

I think the last three years have shown that the DOJ as well as the FBI are in fact very political. The notion of those being non-political entities ended long ago.
 
Relax with a couple of Big Macs. Go play golf.

Tell that to the 4 US attorneys would resigned over Trump's interference. Unfortunately it's another step in flushing out principle from the system.
 
Tell that to the 4 US attorneys would resigned over Trump's interference. Unfortunately it's another step in flushing out principle from the system.
Taken out of context, one of your specialties. The context is for him to have enough sense be still after having a good week or two. Also you repeated the false statement that he fired Vindman. Vindman still has a job. Trump is requesting penalties, which I disapprove of. Your sentence about the four attorneys “would resigned” needs work. One resigned, the other three, at last report, left the case.
 
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Your sentence about the four attorneys “would resigned” needs work. One resigned, the other three, at last report, left the case.

Imposing one's own context on this board is a lost cause. I gave up a long time ago.

Does it matter that only 1 US attorney resigned and 3 "withdrew' in protest from
the case? A distinction without a difference. But the comment changes the subject and ignores Trump's long history of undermining our legal system. BTW Trump also publicly claimed that these US attorneys 'should be ashamed" and later thanked the DOJ for changing the sentence recommendation.

Fake news, fake heroes, fake justice....which institution is next?

At what point can these issues be swept under the rug as "Oh no big deal, there he goes again..."?
 
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Imposing one's own context on this board is a lost cause. I gave up a long time ago.

Does it matter that only 1 US attorney resigned and 3 "withdrew' in protest from
the case? A distinction without a difference. But the comment changes the subject and ignores Trump's long history of undermining our legal system. BTW Trump also publicly claimed that these US attorneys 'should be ashamed" and later thanked the DOJ for changing the sentence recommendation.

Fake news, fake heroes, fake justice....which institution is next?

At what point can these issues be swept under the rug as "Oh no big deal, there he goes again..."?
Imposing my own context? I can't do that, but you can cherry pick what I said to make my post have an opposite meaning.

No it is not a distinction without a difference. It is called a fact. Am I to understand that you are not bound by facts. In one version all four are gone but in the other three remain. I am not defending Trump, I am pointing out the kind of crap you do to other peoples posts. And back it up with a New Jersey editorial.

You have fallen a long way from the original WATU.
 
In the end none of this is likely to matter as Stone’s conviction will likely be overturned on appeal. I’ve never seen a trial where a juror (much less the foreman) was publicly expressing hatred toward the defendants employer and allowed to remain on the jury. However, the Obama appointed federal judge for whatever reason allowed it :). Politics in the DOJ and on the judiciary goes both ways.
 
In the end none of this is likely to matter as Stone’s conviction will likely be overturned on appeal. I’ve never seen a trial where a juror (much less the foreman) was publicly expressing hatred toward the defendants employer and allowed to remain on the jury. However, the Obama appointed federal judge for whatever reason allowed it :). Politics in the DOJ and on the judiciary goes both ways.
It's going to be pretty hard to find a juror that didn't publicly express opinions either for or against Trump in 2016 on social media. Also, just because you hate the guy's boss, doesn't mean you can't be impartial for trial.
 
It's going to be pretty hard to find a juror that didn't publicly express opinions either for or against Trump in 2016 on social media. Also, just because you hate the guy's boss, doesn't mean you can't be impartial for trial.

Correct. However, that potential bias is enough to almost certainly get a person dismissed from the jury. The stuff this juror was putting out on social media went beyond simple dislike fwiw. As I said above, I've never seen a juror allowed on a jury who expressed those types of opinions towards a defendant's company or associates. Can't imagine this verdict not being overturned on appeal based on trial judge's error. Remember, we’re not just talking about a juror here. We’re talking about the foreman.
 
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Correct. However, that potential bias is enough to almost certainly get a person dismissed from the jury. The stuff this juror was putting out on social media went beyond simple dislike fwiw. As I said above, I've never seen a juror allowed on a jury who expressed those types of opinions towards a defendant's company or associates. Can't imagine this verdict not being overturned on appeal based on trial judge's error. Remember, we’re not just talking about a juror here. We’re talking about the foreman.
Stone's attorneys were at jury selection too and were allowed to review and choose the jurors. Why are they allowed to cry foul now?
 
Stone's attorneys were at jury selection too and were allowed to review and choose the jurors. Why are they allowed to cry foul now?

Could be several reasons:

1) The person lied about his feelings or opinions during voir dire
2) Stone's attorney's were out of dismissals and the judge allowed the person to be selected despite the potential bias
3) The information came to light during the trial and Stone's motion to have juror removed was denied by the Judge
4) The information came to light post trial

The inclusion of a juror (foreman) with the feelings he has expressed certainly raise in question the ole notion of a fair and impartial jury. Which is why I see this verdict being overturned on appeal
 
Could be several reasons:

1) The person lied about his feelings or opinions during voir dire
2) Stone's attorney's were out of dismissals and the judge allowed the person to be selected despite the potential bias
3) The information came to light during the trial and Stone's motion to have juror removed was denied by the Judge
4) The information came to light post trial

The inclusion of a juror (foreman) with the feelings he has expressed certainly raise in question the ole notion of a fair and impartial jury. Which is why I see this verdict being overturned on appeal
Firstly, the foreman was a woman, secondly there was a motion filed by Stone's lawyers for a retrial, which was denied by the ruling judge specifically because Stone's lawyers would have been allowed to veto the juror.

Funny that Republicans are only concerned with an impartial jury now, after the impeachment. Seems like Mitch McConnel was essentially a much worse version of a biased foreman.
 
Firstly, the foreman was a woman, secondly there was a motion filed by Stone's lawyers for a retrial, which was denied by the ruling judge specifically because Stone's lawyers would have been allowed to veto the juror.

Funny that Republicans are only concerned with an impartial jury now, after the impeachment. Seems like Mitch McConnel was essentially a much worse version of a biased foreman.
Just curious, why does it matter that the foreman was a woman?
 
Firstly, the foreman was a woman, secondly there was a motion filed by Stone's lawyers for a retrial, which was denied by the ruling judge specifically because Stone's lawyers would have been allowed to veto the juror.

Funny that Republicans are only concerned with an impartial jury now, after the impeachment. Seems like Mitch McConnel was essentially a much worse version of a biased foreman.


See explanations #3 and #4. There is no way on god's green earth that a defense attorney would allow a juror with those views to be seated if said views were known during voir dire. Nor is this something our judicial system would want in a broader sense. I used a generic "he". My bad.
 
See explanations #3 and #4. There is no way on god's green earth that a defense attorney would allow a juror with those views to be seated if said views were known during voir dire. Nor is this something our judicial system would want in a broader sense. I used a generic "he". My bad.
Unless, they were trying to game it to where they could get the case overturned on appeal.... Allowing one blatantly biased person could be a strategy. I'd be curious to know if they had used all of their veto's by the time she was selected. If they hadn't then I would say it was a failure by the defense team. If they had, then I might be swayed towards a retrial... though I think Stone would still be convicted.
 
Again, it's pretty frigging rich for Trump to attack a biased juror after what we just saw in the Senate. More than half of his Senate jurors were blatantly biased and received campaign funds from the party that he leads.
 
Unless, they were trying to game it to where they could get the case overturned on appeal.... Allowing one blatantly biased person could be a strategy. I'd be curious to know if they had used all of their veto's by the time she was selected. If they hadn't then I would say it was a failure by the defense team. If they had, then I might be swayed towards a retrial... though I think Stone would still be convicted.

I would be very surprised if the defense attorneys were aware of everyone's social media posts during selection. To my knowledge the attorneys (either side) don't receive any background information on the jury pool prior to selection. Can't imagine defense attorney being cool with this pic of juror :eek:

EQnmV_qVUAAEymD
 
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I would be very surprised if the defense attorneys were aware of everyone's social media posts during selection. To my knowledge the attorneys (either side) don't receive any background information on the jury pool prior to selection. Can't imagine defense attorney being cool with this pic of juror :eek:

EQnmV_qVUAAEymD
In the end, it's still only one vote on the jury. The jury unanimously found him guilty. Also, it's not like the defense couldn't have asked her questions about her political leanings or her preconceived opinions of Stone's association with Trump.
 
In the end, it's still only one vote on the jury. The jury unanimously found him guilty. Also, it's not like the defense couldn't have asked her questions about her political leanings or her preconceived opinions of Stone's association with Trump.

She apparently lied (or misled) and said she didn't really know anything about Stone when asked during voir dire. This is going to be a problem for the trial judge and the conviction not to mention the juror. I'm not saying that Stone isn't guilty btw.
 
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She apparently lied (or misled) and said she didn't really know anything about Stone when asked during voir dire. This is going to be a problem for the trial judge and the conviction not to mention the juror. I'm not saying that Stone isn't guilty btw.
She disclosed that she had run as a democrat for public office. Also, I don’t think it’s fair to only try and get people who haven’t heard about the crimes of the accused... or even people who have preconceived notions. You just need to have people that will make a tough decision give the presence or lack of evidence in the case. Everyone is going to be biased to some degree.
 
She disclosed that she had run as a democrat for public office. Also, I don’t think it’s fair to only try and get people who haven’t heard about the crimes of the accused... or even people who have preconceived notions. You just need to have people that will make a tough decision give the presence or lack of evidence in the case. Everyone is going to be biased to some degree.

Having jurors with preconceived notions of guilt is a horrible idea. Flies against the entire "presume innocent" principle. In a perfect world both sides prefer people who haven't heard about the case or defendant as it ensures only the facts presented in the case will be considered. When jurors lie or mislead during voir dire it's obviously a huge problem in our quest for a proceeding which is fair to the accused. Sounds like she's been scrubbing her social media profile after her candor came into question.
 
Having jurors with preconceived notions of guilt is a horrible idea. Flies against the entire "presume innocent" principle. In a perfect world both sides prefer people who haven't heard about the case or defendant as it ensures only the facts presented in the case will be considered. When jurors lie or mislead during voir dire it's obviously a huge problem in our quest for a proceeding which is fair to the accused. Sounds like she's been scrubbing her social media profile after her candor came into question.
The problem you have when you try to get people that haven't heard about an issue is that they're usually a)kooks b)ancient or c) have been in a coma. It's not really a trial of your peers when those sorts of folks are presiding over high profile issues. I'd rather have people who value logic, science, and reason over people that simply haven't heard about issues.

Do you really want to have Peggy Hill or Marge Simpson presiding over a murder trial where you're falsely accused?
 
Probably not but u would rather have those two than a racist where the defendant is a minority or extreme political partisan when the defendant is associated with the opposing party. At least you have a fighting chance with the former.
 
Probably not but u would rather have those two than a racist where the defendant is a minority or extreme political partisan when the defendant is associated with the opposing party. At least you have a fighting chance with the former.
I don't know enough about her, I'm not saying that she would be a beneficial juror for him, but I'm not willing to say that she wouldn't uphold justice given supporting evidence.
 
I was a juror on a murder case probably 20 years ago. I was not ancient or recovering from a coma but I may or may not have been a kook. I had never heard the story about the murder so all that I knew was presented by 3 witnesses, and lawyers for the prosecution and defense.

The guy murdered had been a murderer before and convicted of 2nd degree murder. He put the person on trial in a very poor situation, but as the prosecution point out the guy charged could have simply left. Later I found out he ran through the house shooting with other people besides the victim inside.

We found the defendant's testimony seemed truthful and found him guilty of 2nd degree murder. The judge's instructions were quite easy to understand (but long) and we fished at 11pm on Friday night.
 
I don't know enough about her, I'm not saying that she would be a beneficial juror for him, but I'm not willing to say that she wouldn't uphold justice given supporting evidence.

Assume one could always make that argument. If my client is black the last person I want on my jury is some racist with anti-black messages posted all over social media....even though I don’t know for certain he wouldn’t uphold justice.

In this case I wouldn’t trust this person to walk my dog

 
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