Tulsa shooting
- Thread starter TULSARISING
- Start date
Unfortunately mass shootings are now a unique, defining characteristic of life in America. At a recent college reunion the non Americans could not believe that shooter drills were a now part of elementary school education. And people worried about trauma to kids from wearing masks?
God will be with us when we learn some common sense and limit access to firearms.
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Justin Trudeau just proposed legislation limiting access to guns in Canada along the lines Australia did. Buy back program for assault style rifles. Neither democracy seems imperiled.
Biden and the dems knee jerk reaction is to blame the gop and the nra. in his 42 years in the Senate, what has Biden done? what has hrc. or schumer, pelosi. shiff, feinstine, booker, aoc, ... done besides giving lip service and blaming others.
I have a friend who is an elementary school teacher here in Texas, not far from Uvalde. She wonders what kind of meaningful changes will take place to protect not only schools but others from the potential for becoming a mass shooting victim.
The Tulsa shooting is the 20th mass shooting since Uvalde. Think about that, and tell me that things are under control. For allegedly being the party of “law and order“, it is sad that the GOP aligns themselves with a domestic terrorist organization like the NRA. Perhaps people aren’t producing enough “thoughts and prayers” to stop all these mass shootings. It’s never the military style weapons that are blamed because those gun manufacturers and their lobby paid for your senators and representatives.
The Tulsa shooting is the 20th mass shooting since Uvalde. Think about that, and tell me that things are under control. For allegedly being the party of “law and order“, it is sad that the GOP aligns themselves with a domestic terrorist organization like the NRA. Perhaps people aren’t producing enough “thoughts and prayers” to stop all these mass shootings. It’s never the military style weapons that are blamed because those gun manufacturers and their lobby paid for your senators and representatives.
So back in the 80s they passed the Brady Bill which limited access to hand guns and provided for a comprehensive background check. In the 90s when Clinton was President, Congress banned semi-auto assault rifles. That was allowed to lapse under W and not renewed. I'm all for individuals owning a hand gun for personal protection or rifles for hunting...but there is not a good reason for any non-military, non-police individual to own an assault rifle the style that seems to be central to this madness. They are made for one reason and one reason only despite the rube in the Louisiana legislature claiming otherwise. Common sense is needed. Mandatory background and mental health screenings, firearms licensing and liability insurance (I can't believe the insurance lobby isn't all over this...they would make BILLIONS). Of course the NRA and their GOP puppets will claim that these things won't stop the true criminals who won't follow the law anyway. Bull
. It makes it easier for law enforcement to know exactly who the criminals are and to do something about it. There are 2 distinct but inseparable phrases in the 2nd Amendment. The part about "well-regulated" is always forgotten by the NRA and GOP. BTW, I was in the office where that shooting occurred yesterday morning. I was there 8 hours before the shooting. With my 10 year old daughter who had an appt. with the orthopedist to follow up on her surgery to repair a broken arm. I'm shaken because of how lucky we were not to be there later in the day. And I'm pissed because for all the claims that bad guys with guns will be stopped by good guys with guns is a load of crap. There's an armed security guard at the entrance to that building.
No, they really haven't. They have never had the numbers in the Senate necessary to overcome an inevitable Republican filibuster. And now they have an activist conservative court to deal with as well.
Glad you and your daughter are OK Bla.So back in the 80s they passed the Brady Bill which limited access to hand guns and provided for a comprehensive background check. In the 90s when Clinton was President, Congress banned semi-auto assault rifles. That was allowed to lapse under W and not renewed. I'm all for individuals owning a hand gun for personal protection or rifles for hunting...but there is not a good reason for any non-military, non-police individual to own an assault rifle the style that seems to be central to this madness. They are made for one reason and one reason only despite the rube in the Louisiana legislature claiming otherwise. Common sense is needed. Mandatory background and mental health screenings, firearms licensing and liability insurance (I can't believe the insurance lobby isn't all over this...they would make BILLIONS). Of course the NRA and their GOP puppets will claim that these things won't stop the true criminals who won't follow the law anyway. Bull
BTW, I was in the office where that shooting occurred yesterday morning. I was there 8 hours before the shooting. With my 10 year old daughter who had an appt. with the orthopedist to follow up on her surgery to repair a broken arm. I'm shaken because of how lucky we were not to be there later in the day. And I'm pissed because for all the claims that bad guys with guns will be stopped by good guys with guns is a load of crap. There's an armed security guard at the entrance to that building.
Evil is always going to exist on this earth, no matter what policies we have in place , I do believe we need more access to mental health though , and more people to take bullying seriously, though I don’t know what the reasoning behind this attack was ( I do know the doctor who was killed since he was my grandmothers doctor )
Rumor is the shooter was a patient who wasn’t happy with the results of his surgery or the response afterwards. 1). Don’t understand how this leads a human to murder another human. 2). Certainly don’t understand how this leads a person to murdering multiple people. Assume because they were staff who he also blamed.
We're fine. We were out of the building by 9:30am. It's a little surreal to realize you were in the EXACT place of a tragedy that unfolded later on AND by the grace of God we had an early appt because I am allowed to WFH on Wednesdays.
I don't think 'mental health' resources would have had much if any preventative impact on this act. He wasn't crazy. He was angry. There is a difference. (As in, if he hadn't shot himself he would have been unlikely to have been declared criminally insane) What might have had a preventative impact would be restricting the shooter's ability to have acquired two unregistered firearms within the last week without any real difficulty.
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Don't blame it on evil or mental health. Blame it on the fact that the system failed this person and he saw his only course retribution was to act in violence, and that the same system that failed to present him with what he perceived as viable alternatives to violence made one easy path towards violence.
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The system? As in a Doctor who operated on him as well as the Doctor’s staff? The shooter wasn’t happy with the results or the response provided by the Doctor’s office. Said dissatisfaction led to the murders of the Dr and staff. Is there more than that ?
Surgery 5-19
Follow up 5-31
Murdered Dr and 2 staff members 6-1
Trying to blame the “system” instead of the killer goes all over me.
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TW is reporting the patient was unhappy about his care from one of the Drs shot. The others were in the wrong place at the wrong time. This office is sort of divided into adult orthopedics and pediatric orthopedics. However, behind the scenes, the wings are linked by long corridors. If I had to guess there were anywhere between15-20 different rooms on each corridor, and between the rooms are offices for the individual doctors and their staffs. I was under the impression the doors from the waiting area (large room with seating for about 75) were locked and you could only get back there when the nurse came to call you back...apparently not. On the first floor of this building, there is an armed security guard in the main lobby just outside of a St. Francis surgery center in that building. However, you can access the 2nd floor of the building directly from the 2nd level of the adjacent parking garage and bypass the security guard. My guess is this will no longer be an option for access to that area.
That’s the problem with todays society , it’s always somebody else’s fault . It is THE SHOOTERS fault and only his . He murdered 4 innocent people . How would you feel if someone went into a doctors office and shot one of your family members? Would that be ok just because “ the system failed him”
Dr Phillips was my grandmothers doctor and helped her out with her back pain. Glad you are ok
So this is hitting really close to home as I've got several friends who have been to the orthopedic center at St. Francis and who have seen those doctors. Many times, I think we've been desensitized to gun violence of mass shootings because 1) they happen often 2) they happen to someone else. I grieve for the families who lost loved ones yesterday.
Story: I was at TU as the apartment coordinator back when the shooting at Northern Illinois University happened. About 2 days afterwards, TU Security and my office got a call from an apartment resident who was concerned about another resident. He said the kid had an alcohol problem and he had access to a lot of guns. We went to check on him and I don't think I've ever been as nervous at that moment. TU security weren't CLEET certified at the time so they were basically mall cops...they called in TPD to help. Kid's not in his apartment but we go in to take a look. Kid had a 2 BR apt on campus by himself. The extra bedroom was set up as a BAR! Apparently his mom encouraged his drinking problem and had an account at one of the local liquor stores where the kid could go and pick up stuff and the bill mailed to his mom. The kid was underage as well. TU Security called his parents and confiscated all the alcohol. His mom asked that a $2500 bottle of scotch be held by security until she could come pick it up. WTF!?!?! Anyway, kid comes home and freaks and Dean of Students tells him he has 10 mandated wellness visits with the counseling center. Apparently he did have access to a trove of firearms at his parents cabin in SW Missouri.
Again, and especially in OK which basically has no mandatory checks, red flag laws, or any other restrictions on firearms, every person is a legal gun owner until the moment they rampage.
W
Realistic access to care to help him recuperate and deal with the pain he was suffering with. A malpractice suit with a real chance of winning if the doctor actually did botch the surgery. Access to additional surgical options to try and fix any damage that might have been caused or (if no damage was caused in the primary surgery) affordable access to additional courses of surgery that would help stop the pain. Increased knowledge on the front end of the primary surgery to make the patient / shooter aware of the pain that might be associated with the recovery process. etc...
Some of those might actually have been provided to the shooter. But some were things that he likely felt were out of reach (or else he wouldn't have shot up the doctor's office).
If someone shot one of my family in a doctors office. I would first wonder. "Why?" and then I would wonder, "Who put the gun in his hands?"
The answer to neither of those things is "evil" or "the devil" unless I want to start labeling a sideways healthcare system and a backwards gun policy as "evil"
Wow. Way to miss the point. If the shooter's perceived best course of action after a surgery that he felt left him with intolerable pain was to go shoot his doctor.... then there was clearly not sufficient courses of action (or at least visibility or real availability of those courses of action) presented to him to deal with the results of his surgery (botched or not).
Realistic access to care to help him recuperate and deal with the pain he was suffering with. A malpractice suit with a real chance of winning if the doctor actually did botch the surgery. Access to additional surgical options to try and fix any damage that might have been caused or (if no damage was caused in the primary surgery) affordable access to additional courses of surgery that would help stop the pain. Increased knowledge on the front end of the primary surgery to make the patient / shooter aware of the pain that might be associated with the recovery process. etc...
Some of those might actually have been provided to the shooter. But some were things that he likely felt were out of reach (or else he wouldn't have shot up the doctor's office).
If someone shot one of my family in a doctors office. I would first wonder. "Why?" and then I would wonder, "Who put the gun in his hands?"
The answer to neither of those things is "evil" or "the devil" unless I want to start labeling a sideways healthcare system and a backwards gun policy as "evil"
In this case no. But a 6 month waiting period while you're undergoing a mandatory mental health screening would have paused it. Even a 2 week waiting period would have given the chance for the shooter to chill just a bit. If he goes the illegal route then you have crimes committed by both the buyer and the seller at the time of purchase. 10 yr minimum sentences just for back channel gun running like this might scare those sellers into thinking 2x about it.
If there was a solution that could have been implemented that would have prevented the shooter from shooting... then no, it's not only the shooter's fault.
Here's a metaphor for you. You don't give a person in a psych ward a hand grenade... and if you do, and they blow themselves or others up... it's probably your fault for handing them the grenade.
That doesn't mean that the person in the psych ward would never be capable of handling a hand grenade (they might receive treatment and be totally fine a few years later)... but during times of intense mental instability or mental stress, weapons should not be in proximity of people incapable of thinking rationally, especially those who feel they're cornered and/or they have nothing to lose. Those that want others to understand the pain (mental or physical) that they are in, are especially prone to irrational decisions.
Agreed. It's a logical and realistic expectation. It would probably be inconvenient to the law abiding members of society. Gun nuts would complain, but instances of needless violence would decrease.
The shooter murdered these people 12 days after his surgery. Now I have zero idea (nor do any of you) what the prognosis was but he was just beginning the recovery process. There was no failed process here as it had just begun. Furthermore, I’m not going to jump to assumptions like Aston and blame the dead Doctor and his staff for poor medical care or a poor outcome (after 12 days). Nothing we have heard about the dead Doctor indicates such poor care was likely. We have a guy who was willing to murder the Doctor and anyone else who got in his way 12 days after a surgery with a 3-6 month average recovery time. I’m guessing the murderer wanted more prescription pain meds and doctors told him no or would only prescribe a limited amount / reduced dosage. That disregard for innocent lives is the problem.
I do support a waiting period btw.
I do support a waiting period btw.
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The killer made an irrational and unlawful decision that hurt multiple people. He was clearly in pain (both physical and mental) himself.
We must ask ourselves
1. Did the pain the man felt lead him to internally justify taking another's life? The answer: All known clues point to, yes.
2. Was there anything that our healthcare system (or the specific provider) could have done to change that circumstance? Possibly. How he was treated post surgery is relatively unknown, but it's unlikely that there aren't any solutions that might have helped.
3. What would have been the societal cost to change the shooters perception through medical support before he became irrational? Unknown. Probably substantial if adopted nationally and funded publicly.
4. Would the consequences (a dead doctor + others) of avoiding that societal cost (for example the cost of increased public access to follow up surgeries for patients in intense pain) be acceptable? That depends on your perception of the value of human life. I personally value human lives very highly, even those of a doctor who could have committed a malpractice violation.
5. If we choose to disregard the possibility of prevention of motive through a medical solution, because the societal cost is too high to justify getting rid of the motive... are there any other avenues which we might have allowed the motive, but prevented or inhibited the action? Yes. There have been many proposals on gun control legislation which would either fully prevent or greatly inhibit the ability of the man to shoot anyone.
6. What is the societal cost of those actions in terms of actual $$$? Are those costs worth saving lives? Not insubstantial, but I view them as less than the value of the lives we lose due to firearm deaths.
7. What are the unforeseen implications of those gun control actions on society aside their intended consequences (fewer acts of gun violence) ? Some of those unintended consequences: Loss of an ability to protect one's self in one's home or in certain public situations, tougher circumstances in the public preventing outrageous governmental abuse of power.
8. Are the identified unintended consequences of a realistic enough nature or as great of a value as the human lives we continue to lose? No. The threat to public safety due to crimes committed without firearms seems to be of a lesser nature as demonstrated in other countries that have rid themselves of firearms. The threat of an overreaching government is severe; however, the power of our current government and the division we currently see between citizens would make any expectation of overthrowing a governmental system unrealistic. It would likely devolve into a civil war first.
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That’s why I said we need to upgrade our mental health situation, but by the end of the day , we are responsible for our own actions. This doctor nor any of the people that were killed deserved to get murdered. There are people that are deeply disturbed and I hate that for them because some of them have experienced real pain , but that is NEVER an excuse to murder someone
My intent is not to blame the dead. It was to point out that there is the possibility that more than just abject evil could have been a circumstance in the shooter's motive. Also, that even given the existence of the shooter's motive, his means of carrying out the act could also be partially at fault.
I will say one thing schools need to get more help with is the bullying situation, most school shooters are usually the ones that have been bullied
You’re suggesting the dead Doctor may have botched the surgery as well as the prospect of a malpractice suit. There is zero evidence to suggest any of that. Again…it had been 12 days. Looking forward to more info coming out. Hearing the guy wanted more pain meds and Doctor was conservative in providing the same. Guess we can discuss the societal cost of our opioid epidemic.
Honestly, I don't think so... It's what a lot of people point to, but I would have to see statistical evidence. From my observation, the people at the greatest risk of harm to themselves or others are those who feel that they are not necessarily bullied by their peers, but universally ignored by their peers. When they feel such mental anguish that they want to make other people to feel the way they feel. That's especially why you see indiscriminate killings of unrelated persons (like a teenager shooting up a elementary school) vs. a kid who was bullied shooting their bully.
I'm suggesting, that among many other possible drivers for motive, it is a possibility. None of those motives include simply being 'evil' though. Unless the guy really was bonkers. The fact that he shot himself though, would lead me to believe that he understood the ramifications of his actions and was too scared to face them. (Which would make me suspect he wasn't insane)
Also, I'm not even saying that the doctor would have had to commit any acts of malpractice... just that the shooter might have believed that they had occurred... and we would need to get to the bottom of that belief to really understand that motive (if that was the case)
Or the shooter wanted more opioids and the Doctor was being responsible in the distribution of the same. Doctor was acting in a manner which society has demanded and which benefits the same. Unfortunately, he along with other innocent people were murdered for such acts by a man which placed very little value of human life.
The Doctor has treated thousands of patients without incident. I’m placing fault with the murderer and not the Doctor or his staff.
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That’s a good point , people are meant to socialize with others , when someone feels isolated , it can cause some problems
Another possibility is that he had never been on pain meds before and was one of a tiny number of people who experience mania and rage taking them.
I have nothing for you on the policy debate, but I’ll quote an old colleague “The problem with the gun control debate is there are too many absolutists who want no restrictions on all firearms. They are silently enabled by folks on the left who know the constitutional right to an abortion isn’t in the Constitution and they want no restrictions on abortion. Neither is willing to concede that the other should submit to restrictions for fear of silently conceding that they too can be subject to statutory constraints. And neither side, despite having majorities to do so over the years and a favorable President, has legislated on this issue for this reason. So they silently mutually support the other’s positions while they tell their constituents something different. So your problem with gun control isn’t crazy people with assault weapons, it’s crazy people that think abortion on demand should be legal for a viable fetus.”
IOW, the problem isn’t the Republicans in the Senate, it’s the Democrats. And judging by how many Dem moderates are waffling on gun control today, the syrup is pretty tasty right now.
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that’s almost like saying Dr. Phillips should share the blame for his own demise. I disagree.
I will say that this will make large hospital campuses and attached medical buildings and those that manage their security take notice. Many are not designed with security in mind, but with accessibility for patients. Walkways between buildings allow easier access to pedestrians, wheelchairs and small passenger carts. They often attach multiple buildings and have hundreds of people using them, such as at MD Anderson in Houston. Hardening these areas will be very difficult if not impossible.
The Democrats don't want to end the fillibuster for the same reason the Republicans don't. Barring that, the Democrats haven't had control of all branches of government with a fillibuster-proof majority for decades.
That is also a distinct possibility; though disregarding the shooter's motivation (not justifying it, but acknowledging that it existed) might make you overlook a serious issue.
Also, I don't think the fact that a person who was in significant enough pain to go through back surgery and wanted pain meds, is a reason to fault them for being upset at their prolonged pain. I wouldn't think that any junky off the street is scrounging up enough money and has the medical necessity for a Doctor to engage in a back surgery. There seems to be more to this than simply some guy looking for drugs. And that doesn't mean that the doctor did something wrong by today's standards, but maybe how we treat these patients (even the ones looking for drugs) needs to be looked at.
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