Tulsa & (no) Amtrak

[drboobay]

I tried to dig into this several weeks back, and it appears with Amtrak's big expansion plan, Tulsa will be the largest city in the US, by far, without any passenger rail. The Phase 2 promised back in the 1990s is a distant and forgotten memory and expansion will come via OKC to Newton KS instead rather than Tulsa to KC and OKC.

And nobody seems concerned or outraged or even speaks about it.

 

[watu05]

My father used to recite chapter and verse about how Oklahoma City and the state refused to support projects beneficial to Tulsa, particularly higher education. My guess is that this would have been on his list.

 

[drboobay]

My father used to recite chapter and verse about how Oklahoma City and the state refused to support projects beneficial to Tulsa, particularly higher education. My guess is that this would have been on his list.

A promise forgotten. And Tulsans don't seem to care.

 

[noble cane]

Took Amtrak to FW for a TU game once... left from Pauls Valley with destination Fort Worth... I could have driven to Fort Worth, had a steak dinner in sundance square and still had an hour to kill before the train arrived in FW... it took us 6 hours to get from FW to PV on the return trip.

Amtrak is a joke.

 

[drboobay]

Took Amtrak to FW for a TU game once... left from Pauls Valley with destination Fort Worth... I could have driven to Fort Worth, had a steak dinner in sundance square and still had an hour to kill before the train arrived in FW... it took us 6 hours to get from FW to PV on the return trip.

Amtrak is a joke.

I had a great experience on Amtrak from NYC to Albany. And a pretty good experience between Seattle and Vancouver BC.

So I think it depends a lot on the type of service on offer.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Took Amtrak to FW for a TU game once... left from Pauls Valley with destination Fort Worth... I could have driven to Fort Worth, had a steak dinner in sundance square and still had an hour to kill before the train arrived in FW... it took us 6 hours to get from FW to PV on the return trip.

Amtrak is a joke.

You took amtrak to avoid a two hour drive?

 

[aTUfan]

took 4 teenage grandkids Buffalo to NYC a few years ago. It was great.
I love train travel. I wish we had a better system, like Eurorail.

 

[URedskin54]

You took amtrak to avoid a two hour drive?

I can see the appeal of avoiding ever having to drive on I-35. Sucks that they apparently can’t get you there faster than 20mph

 

[PNTrough]

It’s part of the legacy of Democratic Party graft and corruption in the State.

Oklahoma spent the first sixty years of its existence investing in tiny schools as well as roads and bridges in rural areas because that’s where you could really rack up votes and more important really hide some sizeable kickbacks. Oklahoma could have and should have built out the railroad infrastructure in the 1920s. By the time 1946 rolled around and we had our act together it was the air age.

People try to excuse the relative lack of aviation industry in the state, despite its favorable location, by claiming aircraft capability diminished the need to land in Oklahoma thus making it fly over country. The reality is that the Democratic Party increased the fees and taxes associated with the airports to such a high level that we are literally surrounded by aircraft hubs in nearby states that could have been in Oklahoma but aren’t because of the lack of incentives. I laugh when people say Oklahoma isn’t an air hub because of the weather. Like Dallas is much better. What little air industry Tulsa has retained is tied to Democratic Party controlled union skilled labor contracts that can’t easily be undone or moved.

Oklahoma needs fundamental government ethics reform, tax retooling, civil service reform, and a Manhattan project on drug use and education. When you get that, you’ll get your railroads. Private business will want to build their own intermediate distance trains with government partnership.

 

[PNTrough]

took 4 teenage grandkids Buffalo to NYC a few years ago. It was great.
I love train travel. I wish we had a better system, like Eurorail.

That was great in part because the lack of service in Oklahoma and other middle states, and the savings that generates, in essence subsidizes the high cost of running that route. That corridor has historic industrialized train routes which generates public pressure for passenger travel service on the same routes, even when it has to operate at huge losses, as we saw in the 1970s and 80s when passenger rail service was essentially a massive public private jobs program designed to flood unions with government money and in turn voting power. We went along with that, and the scam that is tying federal highway development dollars in part to consumption and use, because our leadership and electorate cared for little more than falsely labeled “low” taxes, guns, abortion, repaying political debt and graft.

 

[noble cane]

You took amtrak to avoid a two hour drive?

My son was 6 and wanted to ride the Tain..

 

[noble cane]

I wiil add though that my wife. The travel advisor, sold a round trip to LA on AmTrak taking the north route from Newton, KS and returning Southern route through FW and Norman...

The customers were family friends and I am looking forward to their honest reviews...

I would like for my experience to be an anomaly because i like seeing the country from the ground and hate flying..

 

[TUMe]

My son was 6 and wanted to ride the Tain..

Same with my granddaughter. She was a bit older. We took Amtrack from Omaha to Salt Lake City and air travel back. Many kids just love trains. You do see areas you can't see from a car.

 

[PNTrough]

Avoid the Trans Siberian. It’s six non stop days of trees. And prison releasees with access to store bought vodka for the first time in 5 to 20 years.

Seattle to NYC was spartan but acceptable. Certainly not anything close to European or Asian comfort standards in First Class.

Ill do Sydney to Perth before I die.

 

[drboobay]

What about my outrage!!!

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Have only taken a non amtrak short route in the states from Durango to Silverton, Co. Was absolutely beautiful. My only other trip on a train 🚆 was Paris to Bordeaux, Fr.

Based on those two trips, I love trains, and wish we would undertake the huge initial cost, and make trains feasible and cost effective for more routes across the US. But the initial investment would likely have to be government subsidized to h3doubleL.

 

[drboobay]

Have only taken a non amtrak short route in the states from Durango to Silverton, Co. Was absolutely beautiful. My only other trip on a train 🚆 was Paris to Bordeaux, Fr.

Based on those two trips, I love trains, and wish we would undertake the huge initial cost, and make trains feasible and cost effective for more routes across the US. But the initial investment would likely have to be government subsidized to h3doubleL.

There was a boatload of Amtrak money in that infrastructure bill. Which is a huge reason I am upset Tulsa was left out.

 

[drboobay]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/15/amtrak-train-map-expansion-us/

 

[watu05]

Well if there was going to be only one Oklahoma city on the track, OKC would make sure it was them. Doubt they felt the need to add in Tulsa. No surprise to my dad. Bummer.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

There was a boatload of Amtrak money in that infrastructure bill. Which is a huge reason I am upset Tulsa was left out.

Even though I haven't read much of the plan, I assumed a plan Biden was behind, would push Train 🚆 route funding heavily. I'll read the aforementioned article when I get a chance.

 

[drboobay]

Again I will repeat when the Heartland Flyer was added in the 90s, another route from OKC to Tulsa and on to KC was the promised "phase 2."

 

[aTUfan]

in the 60s my dad and I would take the train to KC and STL and go to ball games. It was good times together.

 

[loca2874]

We take Amtrak from Quantico, Virginia to Manhattan often. It’s a 5-6 hour drive but the train gets us there in 7-8 hours. I’m not exhausted from driving through traffic, seats are comfortable. Over here on the upper east coast at least it is very much worth it. Elsewhere, maybe not.

Also if you think I-35 is bad? HA! Come drive on I-95. You will love I-35

 

[astonmartin708]

Haven’t had experience with Amtrak but I did do trains from Milan to Venice, Bled (Slovenia) to Salzburg, Salzburg to Vienna and Vienna to Prague. Some routes were better than others… but all were vastly preferable to driving or flying on any budget airline.

 

[astonmartin708]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/15/amtrak-train-map-expansion-us/

The Cheyenne > Ft. Collins > Denver route will be very beneficial. That corridor has way worse traffic in terms of congestion and accident propensity than any I’ve seen in Seattle, Portland, OKC, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, Saint Louis, and Dallas though Dallas was close.

 

[Gold*]

I took the Trans Siberian. It was incredible. Don’t need to do it again. There were some major life experiences along the way. I also came in from Poland through Belarus and then went to Mongolia and China.

This country mostly doesn’t have the infrastructure or culture for meaningful train travel. It’s an east coast thing and makes sense there. To Noble’s point, you give up something by not eating steaks, etc. I know the family that tried to start the Tulsa OKC shuttle a few years back. Same issue. If you need to be in OKC, you probably have one or two places to go. You don’t want to wait around for others. You don’t want to listen to their phone calls. Driving makes more economic sense unless you just plan on being drunk. And that doesn’t really exist in modern work environments.

I know there are exceptions, but it’s just not an efficient means to get anywhere. And I say that as someone who has actually been around the world by train. It was a good experience. But so were rotary phones, Swenson’s at Utica Square, and competitive basketball being played by TU.

PNTrough’s blame of the Democrats suggests who he is. I will note that the most recent highway construction project over the Arkansas River included the infrastructure for high speed trains. This happened with far right senators who won’t let Biden appoint anyone to office here and run against even nuttier people.

 

[astonmartin708]

I took the Trans Siberian. It was incredible. Don’t need to do it again. There were some major life experiences along the way. I also came in from Poland through Belarus and then went to Mongolia and China.

This country mostly doesn’t have the infrastructure or culture for meaningful train travel. It’s an east coast thing and makes sense there. To Noble’s point, you give up something by not eating steaks, etc. I know the family that tried to start the Tulsa OKC shuttle a few years back. Same issue. If you need to be in OKC, you probably have one or two places to go. You don’t want to wait around for others. You don’t want to listen to their phone calls. Driving makes more economic sense unless you just plan on being drunk. And that doesn’t really exist in modern work environments.

I know there are exceptions, but it’s just not an efficient means to get anywhere. And I say that as someone who has actually been around the world by train. It was a good experience. But so were rotary phones, Swenson’s at Utica Square, and competitive basketball being played by TU.

PNTrough’s blame of the Democrats suggests who he is. I will note that the most recent highway construction project over the Arkansas River included the infrastructure for high speed trains. This happened with far right senators who won’t let Biden appoint anyone to office here and run against even nuttier people.

The problem with train efficiency between cities like Tulsa and OKC isn’t the inefficiency of the inter-city train itself… it’s the fact that once you get to the next stop, you don’t have any legitimate city wide transit to get you to your final destination(s) within the city.

That’s what makes Europe special. You can ride from city to city then get off and take a tram to within a block or two of where you want to go, even if that’s in some of the suburbs. Not only does that reduce the necessity for use of combustion engines, it also promotes walking and makes their populations proportionally healthier. I know that Tulsa and OKC have bus routes but it’s just not the same.

It would be like Tulsa having tram routes on 15 minute intervals from just outside the train station to Downtown, The Philbrook, Cherry Street, TU, Gilcrease, the major hospitals, Chandler Park, ORU, Woodland Hills, Utica Square, South Tulsa, Jenks, and Broken Arrow, and none of would take you more than 30 minutes to get to.

The main benefits of not having those systems is that it does reduce vagrancy and delinquency in the areas that would be serviced, but the convenience does outweigh the detriment.

 

[drboobay]

I think of this from a forward rather than backward or nostalgic perspective.

If Amtrak does move ahead with its extensive expansion plan throughout the US it seems to me it would put Tulsa at an economic disadvantage to be the only 1 million plus metro in the US out of the network. Particularly since Tulsa Federal and OK tax dollars will be subsidizing the system. It bothers me a lot.

 

[watu05]

I took trains as a kid and have taken trains up and down the East Coast and in Malaysia, India, Burma (before its name changed), Thailand, Peru, Indonesia, Europe and most recently the high speed trains in Japan where we sailed along at 180 MPH. Pretty cool and a clear step above anything in the US. They were all very different, but mostly fun. 14,000 miles of high speed trains in the US would be great for the environment and provide meaningful competition for air travel.
One study tracked total time door to door for various types of travel and concluded that any trip less than 350 miles takes longer in a commercial plane than a car. Trains likely fall in the middle?