Something to think about...

[astonmartin708]

Insurance was already having a slight problem keeping up with the increase of payouts due to old people, who use their care more frequently getting sick from Covid. What happens when we put all these young people back into the social pool (at school, at work, etc...) and even a fraction of them start needing increased medical attention. The system wasn't designed for a larger than normal proportion of young (typically healthy) people to get sick and need health care. Insurance rates are about to go bonkers.

 

[aTUfan]

Congress has already gutted the ss/medicare account.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Congress has already gutted the ss/medicare account.

Yep, and now Trump wants to gut it even more.

 

[lawpoke87]

Young people’s fatality and hospitalization rates from Covid are extremely low. Don’t we need them in the workforce contributing to healthcare plans and Medicare? They will contribute far more than they cost as far as healthcare and are an vital portion of our Medicare contribution. Wouldn’t a much larger problem be keeping them out of the workforce?

 

[astonmartin708]

Young people’s fatality and hospitalization rates from Covid are extremely low. Don’t we need them in the workforce contributing to healthcare plans and Medicare? They will contribute far more than they cost as far as healthcare and are an vital portion of our Medicare contribution. Wouldn’t a much larger problem be keeping them out of the workforce?

Not sure on the percentages.

 

[TUMe]

We need for young people to gain experience and move into the next level. We also need for young people to be there in the mix. Like in all things you need rookies developing into a new talent base. Why educate these people if not to develop and turn them into a resource. Warren Buffet and Warren Spahn were rookies it one time.

 

[astonmartin708]

BTW, this thread had nothing to do with working. More to do with in-person classes.

 

[lawpoke87]

BTW, this thread had nothing to do with working. More to do with in-person classes.

Surely schools included colleges understand the virus will spread once class rooms are open. The good news is the risk of death to those students is almost zero. Actually lower than the ordinary flu...at least in Oklahoma. Therefore, the argument to shut down for the kids safety is somewhat weak imo. Now the safety of their parents and grandparents are another story.

 

[maverickfp]

I very much want my 3 sons back in school. Literally everyone we know want the same thing.

 

[astonmartin708]

Surely schools included colleges understand the virus will spread once class rooms are open. The good news is the risk of death to those students is almost zero. Actually lower than the ordinary flu...at least in Oklahoma. Therefore, the argument to shut down for the kids safety is somewhat weak imo. Now the safety of their parents and grandparents are another story.

I'm also worried about the safety of the teachers / administrators. It's like sending the people most important to your kid's upbringing into a hornet's nest.

Also, the point of this wasn't that the kids were likely to die. It was that some proportion is likely to need increased medical attention beyond what you would normally need for the Flu for example... and that costs insurance companies (and the rest of us by default) money in terms of increased premiums.

 

[lawpoke87]

I'm also worried about the safety of the teachers / administrators. It's like sending the people most important to your kid's upbringing into a hornet's nest.

Also, the point of this wasn't that the kids were likely to die. It was that some proportion is likely to need increased medical attention beyond what you would normally need for the Flu for example... and that costs insurance companies (and the rest of us by default) money in terms of increased premiums.

A little off topic but relevant to your post. If we’re worried about insurance premiums and can justify closing schools, mandatory masks, etc...can we not take mandatory measures to reduce or eliminate one of the greatest controllable predictor of health care costs....obesity ? Something which will kill more people this year than covid.

 

[shon46]

A little off topic but relevant to your post. If we’re worried about insurance premiums and can justify closing schools, mandatory masks, etc...can we not take mandatory measures to reduce or eliminate one of the greatest controllable predictor of health care costs....obesity ? Something which will kill more people this year than covid.

I support this 10000%. Over 90% of people who die from the China virus had underlying medical issues. Obesity in this country is a huge huge deal that nobody wants to talk about. The virus In the US has acted as a true purge

 

[lawpoke87]

I support this 10000%. Over 90% of people who die from the China virus had underlying medical issues. Obesity in this country is a huge huge deal that nobody wants to talk about. The virus In the US has acted as a true purge

To your point, obesity deaths are under counted. With Covid for example, as well as many other illnesses, the death almost certainly would not have occurred but for the underlying condition of obesity. Yet obesity is not listed as the COD.

 

[astonmartin708]

A little off topic but relevant to your post. If we’re worried about insurance premiums and can justify closing schools, mandatory masks, etc...can we not take mandatory measures to reduce or eliminate one of the greatest controllable predictor of health care costs....obesity ? Something which will kill more people this year than covid.

I would... but people throw fits.... much like they throw fits about wearing masks.

 

[astonmartin708]

To your point, obesity deaths are under counted. With Covid for example, as well as many other illnesses, the death almost certainly would not have occurred but for the underlying condition of obesity. Yet obesity is not listed as the COD.

That's because obesity is not a cause of death, anymore than not being able to swim is a cause of death in a plane crash over the ocean. The cause of death would be drowning as a result of the plane crash. Not because you couldn't swim.

 

[TUMe]

That's because obesity is not a cause of death, anymore than not being able to swim is a cause of death in a plane crash over the ocean. The cause of death would be drowning as a result of the plane crash. Not because you couldn't swim.

Again you go to an extreme case. Many obese people die who have never been over the ocean. I think most doctors could point to many ways obesity can lead to death. It isn't always obvious. Breathing problems, blood pressure, blockages in the heart, Type 2 Diabetes. On and on.

 

[HuffyCane]

It’s always a little shocking when I return to Tulsa or KY from Florida and see the widespread obesity.

I did a guest lecture at a college in KY last year and the school had to remove from the classrooms the familiar shared tables that stretch the width of the classroom with chairs attached. Instead of five rows of that rising above the lecture pit, they had to resurface the room so they could take out all the chairs and tables and replace them with oversized chairs on wheels and single tables that were ADA compliant. So many of the students were so large they could not fit into the seats and were dropping classes because the handicapped seating was unavailable. So they just made classrooms 100% handicapped seating in certain classrooms to accommodate nearly all the kids

 

[aTUfan]

My grandson just moved into his dorm room at OU today.

 

[lawpoke87]

That's because obesity is not a cause of death, anymore than not being able to swim is a cause of death in a plane crash over the ocean. The cause of death would be drowning as a result of the plane crash. Not because you couldn't swim.

Your example as usual is extreme case and provides little if any value to this discussion. Why not use the example of a heart attack and obesity. The heart attack is likely labeled as the COD but would not have occurred but for the obesity. A valid argument can be made that the condition which led to the end result (heart attack and death) is what killed the individual.

The point remains...if we can make masks mandatory by law and keep kids from going to school why can’t we take legal measures to prevent the 300k plus deaths each year in this country from obesity? Are their lives worth less than people in nursing homes?

 

[HuffyCane]

Your example as usual is extreme case and provides little if any value to this discussion. Why not use the example of a heart attack and obesity. The heart attack is likely labeled as the COD but would not have occurred but for the obesity. A valid argument can be made that the condition which led to the end result (heart attack and death) is what killed the individual.

The point remains...if we can make masks mandatory by law and keep kids from going to school why can’t we take legal measures to prevent the 300k plus deaths each year in this country from obesity? Are their lives worth less than people in nursing homes?

We should have banned cigarettes and high fructose corn syrup in the 80s.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Your example as usual is extreme case and provides little if any value to this discussion. Why not use the example of a heart attack and obesity. The heart attack is likely labeled as the COD but would not have occurred but for the obesity. A valid argument can be made that the condition which led to the end result (heart attack and death) is what killed the individual.

The point remains...if we can make masks mandatory by law and keep kids from going to school why can’t we take legal measures to prevent the 300k plus deaths each year in this country from obesity? Are their lives worth less than people in nursing homes?

A law making mask wearing in public is much easier to enforce than one's eating and exercise habits at home. And being fat does not affect others health, unlike wearing masks. So that situation is a little out of bounds as well.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We should have banned cigarettes and high fructose corn syrup in the 80s.

True, but as you know, that would have just made a black market. All these things affect the rights of others much more than a mask mandate.

 

[lawpoke87]

A law making mask wearing in public is much easier to enforce than one's eating and exercise habits at home. And being fat does not affect others health, unlike wearing masks. So that situation is a little out of bounds as well.

Valid point. Does Biden really want a Federal law requiring masks be worn outdoors for the next three months ?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Valid point. Does Biden really want a Federal law requiring masks be worn outdoors for the next three months ?

With sporadic enforcement?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

All this would have been much easier to mandate if Trump had not started/given the movement the push that he did in the beginning.

 

[lawpoke87]

All this would have been much easier to mandate if Trump had not started/given the movement the push that he did in the beginning.

Agree. I’m not against masks. I believe they are a reasonable and non intrusive safety measure. I require everyone entering my offices to wear one. Wearing them outside while on walks and in parking lots seem a bit silly imo.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Agree. I’m not against masks. I believe they are a reasonable and non intrusive safety measure. I require everyone entering my offices to wear one. Wearing them outside while on walks and in parking lots seem a bit silly imo.

I agree on the walks, parks, etc. But I think it is just an effort to get people to wear them in public, such that if you are around people, in a store, whether the store mandates it or not they can enforce it. I doubt an officer who even supported this mandate, would stop you and fine you, if you were walking by yourself,(six feet minimum distance from anyone) in a parking lot. Especially if your reaction was to cooperate and pull out and don your mask, instead of getting belligerent.

 

[aTUfan]

Isn't requiring people to wear a mask the same as requiring parent's to vaccinate their children.

Maybe a good idea, but not enforceable.

 

[astonmartin708]

Your example as usual is extreme case and provides little if any value to this discussion. Why not use the example of a heart attack and obesity. The heart attack is likely labeled as the COD but would not have occurred but for the obesity. A valid argument can be made that the condition which led to the end result (heart attack and death) is what killed the individual.

The point remains...if we can make masks mandatory by law and keep kids from going to school why can’t we take legal measures to prevent the 300k plus deaths each year in this country from obesity? Are their lives worth less than people in nursing homes?

I'm just saying if you want to start listing obesity as a COD, then you're going to have to list it on about 1/2 the country's death certificates even after covid. Making laws to stop people from being fat seems nearly impossible given the makeup of our grocery and restaurant industry. I mean, more than half of the stuff in the grocery store is bad for you and there are very few restaurants serving healthy options besides salads, and nearly no fast food places doing so. Moreover, if you're poor it's even harder to eat healthy as it's hard to not waste produce and have time to cook it all if you're working jobs with weird hours or more than one job. So you end up getting non-perishables which tend to be higher in sodium or carbs and tend to make you obese.

You could certainly go after the soda or sugary snack industries like you did tobacco, but that's going to cause heartache as everyone will argue they should be allowed those items in moderation.... the problem being that no one has them in moderation because they're addictive.

 

[astonmartin708]

I agree on the walks, parks, etc. But I think it is just an effort to get people to wear them in public, such that if you are around people, in a store, whether the store mandates it or not they can enforce it. I doubt an officer who even supported this mandate, would stop you and fine you, if you were walking by yourself,(six feet minimum distance from anyone) in a parking lot. Especially if your reaction was to cooperate and pull out and don your mask, instead of getting belligerent.

I would just have officers start writing tickets like speeding tickets for people not wearing them. Fine people until they comply. Just like seatbelts.

 

[lawpoke87]

I would just have officers start writing tickets like speeding tickets for people not wearing them. Fine people until they comply. Just like seatbelts.

Is that really the point though? Requiring people to wear masks outside makes zero medical sense most of the time. A blanket ordinance or law is a vast overkill. If the Fed’s want to limit the restriction to people in crowds then I’m perfectly fine with the requirement. Ordering me to wear a mask on my morning run or bike ride is absurd however.

 

[lawpoke87]

I'm just saying if you want to start listing obesity as a COD, then you're going to have to list it on about 1/2 the country's death certificates even after covid. Making laws to stop people from being fat seems nearly impossible given the makeup of our grocery and restaurant industry. I mean, more than half of the stuff in the grocery store is bad for you and there are very few restaurants serving healthy options besides salads, and nearly no fast food places doing so. Moreover, if you're poor it's even harder to eat healthy as it's hard to not waste produce and have time to cook it all if you're working jobs with weird hours or more than one job. So you end up getting non-perishables which tend to be higher in sodium or carbs and tend to make you obese.

You could certainly go after the soda or sugary snack industries like you did tobacco, but that's going to cause heartache as everyone will argue they should be allowed those items in moderation.... the problem being that no one has them in moderation because they're addictive.

I’m not sure what the answer is in fighting obesity. Maybe give financial incentives to poor people who meet a certain body mass index level. Would likely be less expensive to financially encourage poor people to live more healthy than pay their health care bills which gets back to your rising insurance costs. We all currently pay more for health care because of obese people. Maybe shift some of that money to encourage a healthy behavior? If we’re really concerned about saving lives one would think there would be an effort on this front.

 

[TUMe]

I’m not sure what the answer is in fighting obesity. Maybe give financial incentives to poor people who meet a certain body mass index level. Would likely be less expensive to financially encourage poor people to live more healthy than pay their health care bills which gets back to your rising insurance costs. We all currently pay more for health care because of obese people. Maybe shift some of that money to encourage a healthy behavior? If we’re really concerned about saving lives one would think there would be an effort on this front.

Great idea! Money for a low BMI. I have to fight to keep mine up to the minimum healthy.

 

[astonmartin708]

Is that really the point though? Requiring people to wear masks outside makes zero medical sense most of the time. A blanket ordinance or law is a vast overkill. If the Fed’s want to limit the restriction to people in crowds then I’m perfectly fine with the requirement. Ordering me to wear a mask on my morning run or bike ride is absurd however.

Sometimes vast overkill is the best way to promote safety. If you've ever worked for a company that's safety conscientious, that's exactly how they operate. They put sensors in your company vehicles so you can't speed. They have safety meetings even when you've done the operation 1,000,000 times before. They make you wear hard hats even when there's no risk of things falling on your head.

I think that there should be an exception for athletic activity outdoors, or in a moderated environment where you're regularly tested as are the people you're to be in contact with (like indoor basketball for the NCAA) besides that, I would be a stickler, at least until a vaccine was publicly available and widely used.

 

[Weatherdemon]

Agree. I’m not against masks. I believe they are a reasonable and non intrusive safety measure. I require everyone entering my offices to wear one. Wearing them outside while on walks and in parking lots seem a bit silly imo.

Agreed.
Trump made the mask a political issue and herd mentality took over with folks opposing mask mandates as violating their rights based upon his words.

I have seen more people in Owasso wearing them in the last week and expect that to continue to increase as it seems folks don't want to be inconvenienced for others safety but if its to allow football to be played with fans, they don't mind.

Folks are seeing that schools like OU, with a great medical school, are limiting their stadium to 25% capacity while others are postponing football and realizing the hoax isn't real but COVID-19 is.

 

[astonmartin708]

I’m not sure what the answer is in fighting obesity. Maybe give financial incentives to poor people who meet a certain body mass index level. Would likely be less expensive to financially encourage poor people to live more healthy than pay their health care bills which gets back to your rising insurance costs. We all currently pay more for health care because of obese people. Maybe shift some of that money to encourage a healthy behavior? If we’re really concerned about saving lives one would think there would be an effort on this front.

I'm really not sure I like giving the government data on if you're overweight or not. Seems like to easy a datapoint to punish instead of reward in a nightmare scenario. I think a better way would be to (by law) discourage less healthy options from grocers / restaurants while simultaneously promoting healthier food buying by poor people by limiting the junkfood items they were allowed to buy with foodstamps.

I would also think about stipends or tax breaks for gym memberships, although those often go unused.

 

[Weatherdemon]

Sometimes vast overkill is the best way to promote safety. If you've ever worked for a company that's safety conscientious, that's exactly how they operate. They put sensors in your company vehicles so you can't speed. They have safety meetings even when you've done the operation 1,000,000 times before. They make you wear hard hats even when there's no risk of things falling on your head.

I think that there should be an exception for athletic activity outdoors, or in a moderated environment where you're regularly tested as are the people you're to be in contact with (like indoor basketball for the NCAA) besides that, I would be a stickler, at least until a vaccine was publicly available and widely used.

I don't see a need for masks outdoors unless in a crowd. Especially a crowd where folks are yelling. Even more so if alcohol is being consumed.
ie: Protests, athletic events, tailgating, concerts, etc.

 

[astonmartin708]

I don't see a need for masks outdoors unless in a crowd. Especially a crowd where folks are yelling. Even more so if alcohol is being consumed.
ie: Protests, athletic events, tailgating, concerts, etc.

I see what you're saying, and I see that wearing them outside is an inconvenience in some situations, but wearing a hardhat is an inconvenience in many situations as well. I think to normalize their use your have to over-emphasize their use. I would say in any situation where you expect to make semi-prolonged (+ 1 minute) contact with a person outside those in your immediate household.

I'm thinking about those photos of beaches in Florida with a million families on them, neighborhood or company barbecues, farmers markets, hardware stores, trick or treating, etc...

 

[lawpoke87]

I see what you're saying, and I see that wearing them outside is an inconvenience in some situations, but wearing a hardhat is an inconvenience in many situations as well. I think to normalize their use your have to over-emphasize their use. I would say in any situation where you expect to make semi-prolonged (+ 1 minute) contact with a person outside those in your immediate household.

I'm thinking about those photos of beaches in Florida with a million families on them, neighborhood or company barbecues, farmers markets, hardware stores, trick or treating, etc...

Wearing a hard hat in construction zones makes sense from a safety standpoint. There’s absolutely no reason to wear one out for a daily walk. Same with masks. If you’re in a crowd then let’s mandate it. Otherwise there’s no medical evidence to support forcing people to wear them outside.

 

[lawpoke87]

I'm really not sure I like giving the government data on if you're overweight or not. Seems like to easy a datapoint to punish instead of reward in a nightmare scenario. I think a better way would be to (by law) discourage less healthy options from grocers / restaurants while simultaneously promoting healthier food buying by poor people by limiting the junkfood items they were allowed to buy with foodstamps.

I would also think about stipends or tax breaks for gym memberships, although those often go unused.

Of all the personal data being collected by the Fed’s and private companies my weight is far down on my list of concerns. Restricting or eliminating certain foods from one group because another group lacks the will power to not over eat the same is silly. Provide incentives to eat them in moderation instead of eliminating them.