Sedition

[astonmartin708]

Why cant you denounce the rioting and looting of multiple cities in america for dozens of days after Floyd was killed? So bizarre.

I denounced it before it even became widespread. But it is not equivalent or even comparable to what some far right conservatives are talking about in terms of bloodshed.

Why can’t anyone here recognize that comparing relatively unorganized looting to organized calls for literal civil war is lunacy?

 

[lawpoke87]

Occasional / infrequent rioting or looting will never (theoretically or in practice) be as big of threats as the potential threat (and public incitement of) literal civil war. We know this because our country has had riots and looting In different places for hundreds of years and it’s cost in terms of lives and lost economic potential paled in comparison to those lost in the US Civil War or various other civil wars across the globe’s history.

Heck the French citizens riot every couple months, but there are far fewer books written about the riots of 2008 than there are about the French Revolution. Damage to property real or not, is almost always still minor in comparison the real or threatened loss of life in sectarian outcomes. In a society that maintains equitable justice and can recapture civility in times of social strife property can be replaced. Lives can not.

The fact you had to go back 160 years to find even a false equivalent makes for a very weak argument. Again....actual violence is always worse and more dangerous than make believe violence even under 160 year old “what if” example which involved politicians, generals and numerous armies.

When we start seeing portions of our armed forces break away from our central command we can start talking about such a possibility. (Will never occur)

 

[cmullinsTU]

I denounced it before it even became widespread. But it is not equivalent or even comparable to what some far right conservatives are talking about in terms of bloodshed.

Why can’t anyone here recognize that comparing relatively unorganized looting to organized calls for literal civil war is lunacy?

How is a single moron with a megaphone talking about bloodshed organized but the looting and riots unorganized?

I'm 100% against what the idiot is saying, but this thread is all much ado about nothing.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

How is a single moron with a megaphone talking about bloodshed organized but the looting and riots unorganized?

I'm 100% against what the idiot is saying, but this thread is all much ado about nothing.

That moron will probably end up in jail sometime in the future. He won't be leading a revolution. Or even following one.

 

[astonmartin708]

The fact you had to go back 160 years to find even a false equivalent makes for a very weak argument. Again....actual violence is always worse and more dangerous than make believe violence even under 160 year old “what if” example which involved politicians, generals and numerous armies.

When we start seeing portions of our armed forces break away from our central command we can start talking about such a possibility. (Will never occur)

It’s not just the American Civil War that we can look to. It’s a Russian one, a Vietnamese one, a Chinese one, a Korean one, and many multiple ones in Asia, the Baltic’s, Africa, and South America since ours.

Civil Wars will always be a larger danger to our society as a whole than riots. The nation has had 100’s if riots in its history and while they were bad events they come nowhere near the destructive potential of what this guy was talking about in DC. It’s a difference between disorganized anger boiling over and that anger becoming systematic and militant. By and large, the left has not moved towards militancy or organized hatred to anywhere near the degree as the right has.

 

[lawpoke87]

There have been zero deaths, zero property destroyed and zero property stolen in civil wars in the US over the last 150 years. Think we’re safe. When large factions of our armed forces defect into its own force then we can talk. Idiots with megaphones or on social media have zero influence over our armed forces and never will. We will be blown up by nuclear war or killed by a pandemic long before we see our military split and fight each other. Now riots and looting are actually real and destructive and deadly. I’ll focus on what’s real.

 

[rivalcane]

I agree that there are extremists on both sides... no one is clapping for bloodshed on on side though.

so why have the dems embraces antif and blm

 

[TUMe]

I denounced it before it even became widespread. But it is not equivalent or even comparable to what some far right conservatives are talking about in terms of bloodshed.

Why can’t anyone here recognize that comparing relatively unorganized looting to organized calls for literal civil war is lunacy?

Why can't you quit talking about a Civil War that is not going to happen? It is almost like you want it. Who called for a civil war. You are the only person I have heard talking about it. Are troops marching through Casper? Has Thermopolis fallen?

 

[astonmartin708]

There have been zero deaths, zero property destroyed and zero property stolen in civil wars in the US over the last 150 years. Think we’re safe. When large factions of our armed forces defect into its own force then we can talk. Idiots with megaphones or on social media have zero influence over our armed forces and never will. We will be blown up by nuclear war or killed by a pandemic long before we see our military split and fight each other. Now riots and looting are actually real and destructive and deadly. I’ll focus on what’s real.

The problem isn't that the current military is defecting, it's that you have a lot of ex-military guys that are being attracted to a violent cause. That's actually exactly what happened in Germany post WWI. A bunch of soldiers came home bitter and disenfranchised. They were just waiting on someone to tell them that their government was the problem and that they needed to overthrow the government. All we're seeing now is a bunch of paramilitary groups made up of ex military, ex police, and soldier-wanna be's, which isn't very different from what the paramilitary groups were made up of back then.

It doesn't take a whole lot for things to spiral out of control and one or more of these groups to start ratcheting up their activity and actually gaining support. It may not turn out to be Nazi Germany, but it could turn out to be one of many other countries where you saw paramilitary groups begin to really cause bloodshed.

 

[astonmartin708]

Why can't you quit talking about a Civil War that is not going to happen? It is almost like you want it. Who called for a civil war. You are the only person I have heard talking about it. Are troops marching through Casper? Has Thermopolis fallen?

I wouldn't be so mindful of it, if we didn't have a president that was calling on his supporters to disrupt the process, to completely distrust their fellow Americans and treat them as enemies, and to ignore any media or scientific sources that disagreed with him. And if we didn't see his supporters in congress going along with it, as well as commoners on the streets literally calling for physical harm to their opposition in a broad denial that they could actually lose an election.

When one party keeps feeding their base that their country and their party is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the other party ends up winning, it doesn't favor rational behavior.

 

[lawpoke87]

The problem isn't that the current military is defecting, it's that you have a lot of ex-military guys that are being attracted to a violent cause. That's actually exactly what happened in Germany post WWI. A bunch of soldiers came home bitter and disenfranchised. They were just waiting on someone to tell them that their government was the problem and that they needed to overthrow the government. All we're seeing now is a bunch of paramilitary groups made up of ex military, ex police, and soldier-wanna be's, which isn't very different from what the paramilitary groups were made up of back then.

It doesn't take a whole lot for things to spiral out of control and one or more of these groups to start ratcheting up their activity and actually gaining support. It may not turn out to be Nazi Germany, but it could turn out to be one of many other countries where you saw paramilitary groups begin to really cause bloodshed.

One could point out the far lefts move toward socialism and the bloodshed throughout history which has occurred when countries took such a turn. There’s always examples of ideology gone bad. Probably more with socialism morphed with communism than any other political form in recent history. Need to be in the lookout for attempts to censor speech....oh wait .

 

[astonmartin708]

One could point out the far lefts move toward socialism and the bloodshed throughout history which has occurred when countries took such a turn. There’s always examples of ideology gone bad. Probably more with socialism morphed with communism than any other political form in recent history. Need to be in the lookout for attempts to censor speech....oh wait .

We are far closer to one side consolidating power than the other side doing so, heck; one side can't even take office in the normal fashion anymore. I would be willing to bet that we would be in a major national crisis if one major event occurred and was pinned on the Democrats. (Like burning down the Reichstag). Trump wouldn't leave office and I would be surprised if the military made him.

 

[lawpoke87]

We are far closer to one side consolidating power than the other side doing so, heck; one side can't even take office in the normal fashion anymore. I would be willing to bet that we would be in a major national crisis if one major event occurred and was pinned on the Democrats. (Like burning down the Reichstag). Trump wouldn't leave office and I would be surprised if the military made him.

I assume we disagree on which side is closer to consolidating power. I would argue the side which is about to control the presidency and the house. The side which controls the press or vice versa. The side which actively seeks to suppress speech whether it’s on social media or on college campuses. The side which supports the silencing of dissenting views is historically the most dangerous....and it ain’t close.

 

[astonmartin708]

I assume we disagree on which side is closer to consolidating power. I would argue the side which is about to control the presidency and the house. The side which controls the press or vice versa. The side which actively seeks to suppress speech whether it’s on social media or on college campuses. The side which supports the silencing of dissenting views is historically the most dangerous....and it ain’t close.

Nah. You have to actually hold authoritative power before you can begin to actually silence opposition beliefs. The Nazis, Bolsheviks, Maoists, etc... didn't silence opposition speech until after they had sized and consolidated power. The democrats are nowhere near having a consolidated power in government. There are still opposition voices being spread far and wide, lying with little repercussion. They still have the supreme court and will for a long time. They have an inherent advantage in both Senate and Presidential elections due to the federal system. And they're building actual organized paramilitary organizations on top of the support they typically have from the actual military.

 

[lawpoke87]

Nah. You have to actually hold authoritative power before you can begin to actually silence opposition beliefs. The Nazis, Bolsheviks, Maoists, etc... didn't silence opposition speech until after they had sized and consolidated power. The democrats are nowhere near having a consolidated power in government. There are still opposition voices being spread far and wide, lying with little repercussion. They still have the supreme court and will for a long time. They have an inherent advantage in both Senate and Presidential elections due to the federal system. And they're building actual organized paramilitary organizations on top of the support they typically have from the actual military.

Historically you would be correct but as we’ve seen throughout history times and technology make changes possible. Our government model also plays an important role. Oppressors always seek to control the media and educational system in order to eliminate dissenting voices. Something we are now seeing. It’s not a quick process but a means to consolidate long term power by suppressing opposition voices. Those who control the message by suppression and censorship seldom fail in their goal...the elimination of opposition voices. Remember, Hitler gained support from the majority of the German people only after he silenced his opposition and dictated the message through the media. From there oppression of the silenced almost always occurs. The goal has consistently been the same. Scary stuff.

 

[aTUfan]

I denounced it before it even became widespread. But it is not equivalent or even comparable to what some far right conservatives are talking about in terms of bloodshed.

Why can’t anyone here recognize that comparing relatively unorganized looting to organized calls for literal civil war is lunacy?

Left rational. What the left actually does is not as bad as what the right might do.

 

[TUMe]

This isn't Germany. We haven't just lost WWI, the Kaiser hasn't been removed. The money isn't worthless.

Let's talk about Fort Sumpter. "The South fired on Fort Sumpter." Actually there was a 36 hour artillery duel. Around 100 Union troops surrendered to Beauregard. Neither US party has Artillery under their direct control or will.

The Civil War had the most American deaths of any war. A few media and some drunks at screen door bars are talking civil war. The Prussians would laugh at them. Have you been to Germany? The seedy bars have pictures of war dead, but they will sell you a beer and vote for Merkel.

What Western Democracy has civil wars these days. The Brits get into serious issues over Association Football, but Liverpool won without riots.

Neither side wants a civil war here.

 

[astonmartin708]

This isn't Germany. We haven't just lost WWI, the Kaiser hasn't been removed. The money isn't worthless.

Let's talk about Fort Sumpter. "The South fired on Fort Sumpter." Actually there was a 36 hour artillery duel. Around 100 Union troops surrendered to Beauregard. Neither US party has Artillery under their direct control or will.

The Civil War had the most American deaths of any war. A few media and some drunks at screen door bars are talking civil war. The Prussians would laugh at them. Have you been to Germany? The seedy bars have pictures of war dead, but they will sell you a beer and vote for Merkel.

What Western Democracy has civil wars these days. The Brits get into serious issues over Association Football, but Liverpool won without riots.

Neither side wants a civil war here.

I would say there are probably +/- 10 million on one side that would tell you that they wouldn’t mind it. There are another 25-30 million on the same side who are gullible enough to go along with it if their supreme leader told them to do so.

I’m not saying there aren’t crazies on the left too. I’m just saying that the leadership on the left has made no overtures to consolidating power like the right has and they’re not actively pandering to paramilitary groups. The worst we’ve seen on the left is Antifa and they’ve been lightly armed if armed at all and they have basically no organized structure. Moreover, Biden isn’t acknowledging them or holding rallies for them.

 

[HuffyCane]

This isn't Germany. We haven't just lost WWI, the Kaiser hasn't been removed. The money isn't worthless.

Let's talk about Fort Sumpter. "The South fired on Fort Sumpter." Actually there was a 36 hour artillery duel. Around 100 Union troops surrendered to Beauregard. Neither US party has Artillery under their direct control or will.

The Civil War had the most American deaths of any war. A few media and some drunks at screen door bars are talking civil war. The Prussians would laugh at them. Have you been to Germany? The seedy bars have pictures of war dead, but they will sell you a beer and vote for Merkel.

What Western Democracy has civil wars these days. The Brits get into serious issues over Association Football, but Liverpool won without riots.

Neither side wants a civil war here.

I think you under estimate the concern and discontent and threat some people have right now and they fall across the political spectrum, particularly out west. There’s uncertainty in the economy and the legitimacy of leadership that dates to 2000. It would not surprise me to see 500,000 people marching in Washington with assault rifles in defiance of local prohibitions. In that situation, it only takes a couple of idiots on either side or no side for their to be shootings.

The only casualty of the Sumpter engagement was a Confederate horse. But it started our bloodiest conflict. Scenes of Republican sympathizing wackos shooting black antifa on the national mall could spark violence that could end the Republican Party and last decades.

 

[TUMe]

I would say there are probably +/- 10 million on one side that would tell you that they wouldn’t mind it. There are another 25-30 million on the same side who are gullible enough to go along with it if their supreme leader told them to do so.

I’m not saying there aren’t crazies on the left too. I’m just saying that the leadership on the left has made no overtures to consolidating power like the right has and they’re not actively pandering to paramilitary groups. The worst we’ve seen on the left is Antifa and they’ve been lightly armed if armed at all and they have basically no organized structure.

I'll stop. You want to believe there will or could be a civil war.

 

[astonmartin708]

I'll stop. You want to believe there will or could be a civil war.

I’m just repeating what some of the Republican base is saying and telling you why I think we’re in a precarious position that we need to walk back from.

 

[TUMe]

I lied, one more thing then I will stop. Older people make up a lot of Trump's base.

Older people don't make good soldiers unless they are high ranking officers or Sergeant Majors. Older people people have the most to lose in a civil war. Vietnam TUme would whip retired TUme's ass. This version is more concerned with his 401k where the earlier version had never heard of such a thing.

 

[lawpoke87]

....but 95% of Pubs don’t want to kill anyone . Isn’t that the way we justify things around here?

Never thought I would see the day where “what if” violence is worse then actual violence. Crazy logic

 

[astonmartin708]

I lied, one more thing then I will stop. Older people make up a lot of Trump's base.

Older people don't make good soldiers unless they are high ranking officers or Sergeant Majors. Older people people have the most to lose in a civil war. Vietnam TUme would whip retired TUme's ass. This version is more concerned with his 401k where the earlier version had never heard of such a thing.

This is a valid point.

 

[astonmartin708]

....but 95% of Pubs don’t want to kill anyone . Isn’t that the way we justify things around here?

Never thought I would see the day where “what if” violence is worse then actual violence. Crazy logic

The actual violence by and large hasn’t been physically harmful to people and is in response to an extremely valid problem that’s been systemic and is still not being addressed appropriately by our government. The looming violence being touted by some could threaten the actual physical well being / continued existence of many people in our country and their property as well rather than simply the property of a few isolated cities of the country. The stakes are much larger for what’s being talked about by the ultra right wing and there are few judicial, insurance, or political remedies to civil war like there are for riots / looting. You can’t really drag in an opposing soldier to the local judge for breaking your store window when you’re in a war. You won’t receive any damages for their criminal behavior. You can do so to a rioter.

 

[lawpoke87]

You might tell that to the 20 plus people who have been killed in the riots in 2020 alone along with the hundreds of millions in destroyed property. Death is fairly harmful. Again....when military units start breaking away from central command we can talk (will never occur btw).

 

[astonmartin708]

You might tell that to the 20 plus people who have been killed in the riots in 2020 alone along with the hundreds of millions in destroyed property. Death is fairly harmful. Again....when military units start breaking away from central command we can talk (will never occur btw).

They don’t need to break away from central command if for some reason Trump doesn’t leave office. (Not saying that’s incredibly likely... just that it’s possible) BTW, people killed in the riots have sometimes been victims not of violence but of self defense, or of aggression from counter protestors from these same paramilitary groups we’re talking about (like the kid in Wisconsin)

 

[lawpoke87]

The closest we’ve come to a fringe group taking over our cities is probably Seattle and Portland. Didn’t see calls for those activities to be squashed from this board. Like I’ve said, until the right starts taking over parts of the country and declaring it separate from our jurisdiction the left is the only group to take such actions. Actions which weren’t condemned btw. Can you imagine if right wing groups were taking over parts of cities and shutting down police stations in those areas?

 

[aTUfan]

We've been in a civil war. We became a divided nation when the The Dems and the media declared war on Trump and Republicans 4 years ago, with their incessant barrage of crap.

 

[astonmartin708]

The closest we’ve come to a fringe group taking over our cities is probably Seattle and Portland. Didn’t see calls for those activities to be squashed from this board. Like I’ve said, until the right starts taking over parts of the country and declaring it separate from our jurisdiction the left is the only group to take such actions. Actions which weren’t condemned btw. Can you imagine if right wing groups were taking over parts of cities and shutting down police stations in those areas?

I think what we’ve been disregarding is the militarization of not only paramilitary / right wing groups but also our police forces in general. With the surpluses they’ve been given from our wars in Afghanistan / Iraq and the federal military overspending in general, those organizations have become only a step away from actual military forces. Additionally they’re hiring ex military members frequently and the right has been courting them as well. Some of those forces might be ones that parallel those that the confederate army was born out of. It would take some coaxing from the national Republican Party but we’ve already seen police forces and right wing paramilitary militia organizations being chummy with each other. These forces don’t need to “take over” any city’s because they already have the upper hand in many of them.

The fact that we’ve seen left wing groups fighting with cops as well as the militias should tell you that we’re probably not as far away from serious violence as you think. its going to be he said, she said with who really caused the conflict just as it has been with the civil war. What we do know is that there are festering divides in the country and they are starting to boil over because they’re not being adequately addressed on a national level. (Much like slavery, states rights, etc... so long ago) So far, things are getting worse, not better... and the current leadership of the Republican Party isn’t helping things by playing to their radical base. I don’t believe the Dems have done that so much with Biden / Harris or even the upper echelon senators.

 

[lawpoke87]

I think what we’ve been disregarding is the militarization of not only paramilitary / right wing groups but also our police forces in general. With the surpluses they’ve been given from our wars in Afghanistan / Iraq and the federal military overspending in general, those organizations have become only a step away from actual military forces. Additionally they’re hiring ex military members frequently and the right has been courting them as well. Some of those forces might be ones that parallel those that the confederate army was born out of. It would take some coaxing from the national Republican Party but we’ve already seen police forces and right wing paramilitary militia organizations being chummy with each other. These forces don’t need to “take over” any city’s because they already have the upper hand in many of them.

The fact that we’ve seen left wing groups fighting with cops as well as the militias should tell you that we’re probably not as far away from serious violence as you think. its going to be he said, she said with who really caused the conflict just as it has been with the civil war. What we do know is that there are festering divides in the country and they are starting to boil over because they’re not being adequately addressed on a national level. (Much like slavery, states rights, etc... so long ago) So far, things are getting worse, not better... and the current leadership of the Republican Party isn’t helping things by playing to their radical base. I don’t believe the Dems have done that so much with Biden / Harris or even the upper echelon senators.

The Dem mayors and governors have allowed radical left wing groups take over parts of cities. Shut businesses in those areas down. Decide who enters and who doesn’t. Actions that far exceed anything we’ve seen from the right in terms of allowing groups take over cities or even rural areas. Why have you not expressed alarm over groups of people who are actually taking over parts of our cities and instead panicking over “what if’s”? Scenarios which will never occur imo

 

[rivalcane]

Just ran across an old bit from the Steve Allen show. When late night tv was entertaining.

 

[TUMe]

I think what we’ve been disregarding is the militarization of not only paramilitary / right wing groups but also our police forces in general. With the surpluses they’ve been given from our wars in Afghanistan / Iraq and the federal military overspending in general, those organizations have become only a step away from actual military forces. Additionally they’re hiring ex military members frequently and the right has been courting them as well. Some of those forces might be ones that parallel those that the confederate army was born out of. It would take some coaxing from the national Republican Party but we’ve already seen police forces and right wing paramilitary militia organizations being chummy with each other. These forces don’t need to “take over” any city’s because they already have the upper hand in many of them.

The fact that we’ve seen left wing groups fighting with cops as well as the militias should tell you that we’re probably not as far away from serious violence as you think. its going to be he said, she said with who really caused the conflict just as it has been with the civil war. What we do know is that there are festering divides in the country and they are starting to boil over because they’re not being adequately addressed on a national level. (Much like slavery, states rights, etc... so long ago) So far, things are getting worse, not better... and the current leadership of the Republican Party isn’t helping things by playing to their radical base. I don’t believe the Dems have done that so much with Biden / Harris or even the upper echelon senators.

You claim that Civil War is coming and you don't want it, but in reality you are cheer leading for it. I'm not a big fan of Biden, but I do believe he will have a calming effect. Voters reducing the number of House members that are Democrats, even from California, will weaken the "progressive" group. But the truth is there was never going to be a civil war. The next election is two years away for the House. Get some action on Covid treatment, narrow the deference in the aid package from the two parties and actually get help for people who need it instead of a wish list from Nancy or Bernie and mental temperatures will fall. The US has more aircraft carriers and more importantly a historically more loyal military than it did in 1861,

 

[astonmartin708]

You claim that Civil War is coming and you don't want it, but in reality you are cheer leading for it. I'm not a big fan of Biden, but I do believe he will have a calming effect. Voters reducing the number of House members that are Democrats, even from California, will weaken the "progressive" group. But the truth is there was never going to be a civil war. The next election is two years away for the House. Get some action on Covid treatment, narrow the deference in the aid package from the two parties and actually get help for people who need it instead of a wish list from Nancy or Bernie and mental temperatures will fall. The US has more aircraft carriers and more importantly a historically more loyal military than it did in 1861,

I’m really not. I just don’t want to say “I told you so” about something like this.
Again, the military won’t be the driving force behind any violent action between left and right, at least not initially.

 

[watu04]

The closest we’ve come to a fringe group taking over our cities is probably Seattle and Portland.

Agreed, if these two events are actually the closest we came, then there is little risk. There was nothing close to a fringe group taking over in either city. The Seattle major (a former US attorney) was smart enough to not ramp things up as the Feds did in Portland. Seattleites are happy the police chief is gone. Fox got caught doctoring photos trying to make the CHOP look out of control. Everything TV showed in both cities took place in in a couple of blocks. Outside of those areas, residents were unfazed.

That said, I don't think either place was a good example of the risk that Aston described.

 

[watu04]

I lied, one more thing then I will stop. Older people make up a lot of Trump's base.

Older people don't make good soldiers unless they are high ranking officers or Sergeant Majors. Older people people have the most to lose in a civil war. Vietnam TUme would whip retired TUme's ass. This version is more concerned with his 401k where the earlier version had never heard of such a thing.

Great point particularly about old guys having the energy for violence. OTOH how many retirees have healthy 401Ks? Estimates of average retiree 'wealth' are low and getting lower. I think the average monthly Social Security income for boomers is about $1,500 and half have less than $150K in retirement savings. Some estimates are worse.

"Most people don’t have enough assets to meet their needs. The estimated median for baby boomer’s total retirement savings is inadequate to provide the income needed. Transamerica reports that baby boomers have saved a median of only $152,000."

 

[aTUfan]

401k vs Ss

I deposited the same amount into both accounts for years.
At retirement, my 401k had out preformed the government run social security program

So I don't understand what is the problem with privatization of all retirement saving.

 

[watu04]

401k vs Ss

I deposited the same amount into both accounts for years.
At retirement, my 401k had out preformed the government run social security program

So I don't understand what is the problem with privatization of all retirement saving.

Nothing if you don't care about all those who work hard for years for companies that do not offer 401K's.

 

[aTUfan]

You can create your own ira to do the same thing

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So now watu4 takes the place of watu3/tbrice? 😜