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Prospective Student Interest Due to Visibility of Athletic Programs

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I know there are several of us here who have made this point before, but I saw some hard numbers published by a Florida newspaper on UCF’s enrollment and interest from potential students since their national championship claim:

UCF National Championship attention is making it’s mark.

“The university received a record 43,495 applications from first-time college freshmen for this summer and fall, up about 11 percent from last year. That number includes 34,985 students who are Florida residents and 8,510 who are not."

"And even though UCF received more applications, fewer students received acceptance letters. The university admitted 17,975 applicants, down nearly 8 percent from last year. "

"The average UCF freshman who starts class this fall will have a weighted GPA of 4.07 and an SAT score of 1310 to 1320 or ACT score of about 28. Last year’s freshmen had similar credentials."

If we could only get it through some of the trustees, faculty, and a few administrators that athletics does indeed play a big role in the visibility and appeal of a university (especially at the D1 level), I think we could see TU move forward on several items that have been stuck in the mud for years.

Solid offseason thread?
 
I know there are several of us here who have made this point before, but I saw some hard numbers published by a Florida newspaper on UCF’s enrollment and interest from potential students since their national championship claim:

UCF National Championship attention is making it’s mark.

“The university received a record 43,495 applications from first-time college freshmen for this summer and fall, up about 11 percent from last year. That number includes 34,985 students who are Florida residents and 8,510 who are not."

"And even though UCF received more applications, fewer students received acceptance letters. The university admitted 17,975 applicants, down nearly 8 percent from last year. "

"The average UCF freshman who starts class this fall will have a weighted GPA of 4.07 and an SAT score of 1310 to 1320 or ACT score of about 28. Last year’s freshmen had similar credentials."

If we could only get it through some of the trustees, faculty, and a few administrators that athletics does indeed play a big role in the visibility and appeal of a university (especially at the D1 level), I think we could see TU move forward on several items that have been stuck in the mud for years.

Solid offseason thread?
It's a good thread...and one not lost on many of us. One of TU's largest FR classes EVER came in right after TU went to the ball game the year Kragthorpe came in and again a couple of years later when TU won the C-USA Championship AND the Liberty Bowl.

However, right now, TU could win AAC championships in both men's basketball and football and it might not have a ton of impact on who actually enrolls. The end of the Perkins Loan program by the Dept of Ed is hammering private schools. It is forcing those institutions to look for alternative forms of financial aid which may not necessarily be school or student friendly. Because of their nature and the higher tuition and fees associated with doing business for private institutions, the loss of the Perkins Loan program is pushing kids to lower cost options, mainly state institutions or schools that offer in-state tuition and fees to nearby states (i.e. Arkansas). I never realized how many kids from the Tulsa area head to Fayetteville to go to school.
 
Some of those numbers are deceiving, but there is absolutely no doubt that it drives enrollment. The problem with the above is that the quote makes it sound like 17,975 FTIC students had academic credentials with an ACT 28 or so. Or that the "average UCF freshman" class had similar credentials. The reality is that only a sliver of their enrollment of first year UCF students is first time in college freshman who reside on campus in a traditional campus experience. It is less than 10 percent of the actual enrollment. Basically, they count gross applications and gross admissions from all of their online classes and branch campuses in shopping malls, as well as the students that UCF must admit by state law that dont qualify for FSU and UF, transfer students from UF and FSU who no longer academically qualify for cakewalk curriculums that they must admit by state law, and countless other students. But they cite the academic qualifications of only a thin sliver of who is actually admitted and nearly all of them are aerospace and other engineering disciplines where UCF is still a second or third choice in state. UCF's academic credentials have improved since they built the resort and shopping mall around their academic buildings, but the reality is that less than 5% of UCF students who graduate are students who are admitted with the academic credentials mentioned above. They have repeatedly been called out on it. It isnt as bad as Boise's 5% four year graduation rate for all students, but it is close.

Speaking of Boise and sticking with the thread topic ... here's some numbers since the logo change. The effect of athletics on the quality of academic applicants is undeniable and it absolutely destroys egos on campus to admit it. From a Nevada newspaper that is pissed that Nevada routinely beat BSU on the field up until the bond issue and logo change:

"Since Boise State’s first Fiesta Bowl (2007) to its last (2015), the university has exploded. Enrollment is up 18 percent, research grants and contracts are up 68 percent, foundation assets have increased 59 percent and the number of donors, not just in athletics, but the entire university has risen from 5,271 people to 12,195, a 131 percent jump. It’s unfair to credit that all to football, but it’s played a big role

“It absolutely would have been harder without the success in football,” said Hahn, adding that nothing that happens on campus can match the national buzz like a football game. “When you talk about recruiting students, kids talk about the colleges they know about. If you succeed in sports, you’re going to be one of the colleges they know. If you look at the other universities in the state, we’ve definitely grown a lot faster than they have and I don’t think that’s a coincidence. There’s a link there.”

----

The New York Times on Alabama:
[Football] advanced the entire school ... the catalyst for more than $1.7 billion in fund-raising. In the last decade, enrollment has increased by more than 55 percent while the acceptance rate has fallen from 72 percent to 54 percent as the quality of applicant to the school has increased.

“Just like Nick Saban has recruited five-star athletes, the university is going after the best and brightest students,” Calvin Brown, the Alabama’s director of alumni affairs, told the Times. “We understand there are young people out there who first view us, or any other institution, through the window of athletics.” ...

When Butler basketball made it to the NCAA Tournament final in 2010 and 2011, it reportedly gained $1.2 billion in free publicity while watching applications rise by 41 percent after the first title-game appearance.

---

I think most, if not all, of the trustees, faculty, and staff recognize the necessity of athletics for TU to maintain its goal of remaining a Top 50 comprehensive university. They know it is the dividing line between TU and Creighton, Drake, etc. But they are also smart and highly motivated. We wouldn't want them in their roles if they weren't. And smart and highly motivated people are usually greedy and self-interested. And when you have a limited budget like TU, they do everything they can do to protect their turf out of greed and self-interest. You have to feed that monster to maintain productive control of the university, just like you have to feed the alumni football monster, and the student good sex and free stuff monster. Boise broke out of the limited budget problem by going all chips in on a bond issue. TU needs to get innovative and do something more limited, but similar.
 
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Some of those numbers are deceiving, but there is absolutely no doubt that it drives enrollment. The problem with the above is that the quote makes it sound like 17,975 FTIC students had academic credentials with an ACT 28 or so. Or that the "average UCF freshman" class had similar credentials. The reality is that only a sliver of their enrollment of first year UCF students is first time in college freshman who reside on campus in a traditional campus experience. It is less than 10 percent of the actual enrollment. Basically, they count gross applications and gross admissions from all of their online classes and branch campuses in shopping malls, as well as the students that UCF must admit by state law that dont qualify for FSU and UF, transfer students from UF and FSU who no longer academically qualify for cakewalk curriculums that they must admit by state law, and countless other students. But they cite the academic qualifications of only a thin sliver of who is actually admitted and nearly all of them are aerospace and other engineering disciplines where UCF is still a second or third choice in state. UCF's academic credentials have improved since they built the resort and shopping mall around their academic buildings, but the reality is that less than 5% of UCF students who graduate are students who are admitted with the academic credentials mentioned above. They have repeatedly been called out on it. It isnt as bad as Boise's 5% four year graduation rate for all students, but it is close.

Speaking of Boise and sticking with the thread topic ... here's some numbers since the logo change. The effect of athletics on the quality of academic applicants is undeniable and it absolutely destroys egos on campus to admit it. From a Nevada newspaper that is pissed that Nevada routinely beat BSU on the field up until the bond issue and logo change:

"Since Boise State’s first Fiesta Bowl (2007) to its last (2015), the university has exploded. Enrollment is up 18 percent, research grants and contracts are up 68 percent, foundation assets have increased 59 percent and the number of donors, not just in athletics, but the entire university has risen from 5,271 people to 12,195, a 131 percent jump. It’s unfair to credit that all to football, but it’s played a big role

“It absolutely would have been harder without the success in football,” said Hahn, adding that nothing that happens on campus can match the national buzz like a football game. “When you talk about recruiting students, kids talk about the colleges they know about. If you succeed in sports, you’re going to be one of the colleges they know. If you look at the other universities in the state, we’ve definitely grown a lot faster than they have and I don’t think that’s a coincidence. There’s a link there.”

----

The New York Times on Alabama:
[Football] advanced the entire school ... the catalyst for more than $1.7 billion in fund-raising. In the last decade, enrollment has increased by more than 55 percent while the acceptance rate has fallen from 72 percent to 54 percent as the quality of applicant to the school has increased.

“Just like Nick Saban has recruited five-star athletes, the university is going after the best and brightest students,” Calvin Brown, the Alabama’s director of alumni affairs, told the Times. “We understand there are young people out there who first view us, or any other institution, through the window of athletics.” ...

When Butler basketball made it to the NCAA Tournament final in 2010 and 2011, it reportedly gained $1.2 billion in free publicity while watching applications rise by 41 percent after the first title-game appearance.

---

I think most, if not all, of the trustees, faculty, and staff recognize the necessity of athletics for TU to maintain its goal of remaining a Top 50 comprehensive university. They know it is the dividing line between TU and Creighton, Drake, etc. But they are also smart and highly motivated. We wouldn't want them in their roles if they weren't. And smart and highly motivated people are usually greedy and self-interested. And when you have a limited budget like TU, they do everything they can do to protect their turf out of greed and self-interest. You have to feed that monster to maintain productive control of the university, just like you have to feed the alumni football monster, and the student good sex and free stuff monster. Boise broke out of the limited budget problem by going all chips in on a bond issue. TU needs to get innovated and do something more limited, but similar.
Comparisons of UCF, Boise St. and Alabama to TU and application/enrollment numbers just simply don't cross. UCF-large regional public institution mandated to take in-state students who qualify for college. Boise is the same. Alabama is that state's flagship institution. While athletic success has something to do with some increased application numbers, they have high numbers and acceptance rates anyway.

Boise St is interesting in its progression anyway and probably not something that is comparable to TU in any way. Boise State was a 2 year junior college up until fairly recently (in a relative sense). After the JUCO days it played I-AA football and its 1A/FBS life and relevance is only since the 90s. It also offers more degree options than any other public institution in Idaho and is approaching flagship university status for the state. While football success can be attributed to some of its increased enrollment, it's hard to say how much is due to that and how much is due to the increased and more diverse offerings than say U of Idaho and Idaho St.

To me, Butler is a good comparison on application increases as an effect from athletic success. Wake Forest and Vanderbilt as well. (Wake Forest probably the best since they are very similar in size and scope of TU).
 
To me, Butler is a good comparison on application increases as an effect from athletic success. Wake Forest and Vanderbilt as well. (Wake Forest probably the best since they are very similar in size and scope of TU).

Butler plays FCS level football. It's not a good comparison to us.
 
Butler plays FCS level football. It's not a good comparison to us.
The comparison was the exposure due to basketball success...it would be a decent comparison. Basketball is easily their high profile sport. IF Tulsa made a NY6 bowl game, the jump in applications would probably be similar.
 
The Pres certainly gets it. And the Dean of Admissions is a football alum.

TU still struggles with prospective undergraduates self-selecting themselves out of completing the admissions application (or not even trying in the first place bc it seems out of their league) and seeing an aid package.
 
(Clancy was still hot about the way the game at UH ended in 2016 when he visited here in January and mentioned it during his remarks, and Montgomery accompanied him on some of these city visits too.)
 
The Pres certainly gets it. And the Dean of Admissions is a football alum.

TU still struggles with prospective undergraduates self-selecting themselves out of completing the admissions application (or not even trying in the first place bc it seems out of their league) and seeing an aid package.
+1. A lot of academically qualified students see the estimated 1 year price tag and move on.

BTW, the cost of higher education has the highest inflation rate of any good or service in the last 30 years mostly due to the increased number of high level/VP level administrators added.
 
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Does TU still have the regionally based Admissions counselors? I know back in the 90s, early 2000s TU maintained admissions offices in Dallas, Kansas City and St. Louis. Heck, there were a few years where TU could have also been called SLU High South there were so many students coming from there (as well as all the other private schools in StL).
 
Does TU still have the regionally based Admissions counselors? I know back in the 90s, early 2000s TU maintained admissions offices in Dallas, Kansas City and St. Louis. Heck, there were a few years where TU could have also been called SLU High South there were so many students coming from there (as well as all the other private schools in StL).

Yes. And they are about to plant one in California too.
 
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Comparisons of UCF, Boise St. and Alabama to TU and application/enrollment numbers just simply don't cross. UCF-large regional public institution mandated to take in-state students who qualify for college. Boise is the same. Alabama is that state's flagship institution. While athletic success has something to do with some increased application numbers, they have high numbers and acceptance rates anyway.

Boise St is interesting in its progression anyway and probably not something that is comparable to TU in any way. Boise State was a 2 year junior college up until fairly recently (in a relative sense). After the JUCO days it played I-AA football and its 1A/FBS life and relevance is only since the 90s. It also offers more degree options than any other public institution in Idaho and is approaching flagship university status for the state. While football success can be attributed to some of its increased enrollment, it's hard to say how much is due to that and how much is due to the increased and more diverse offerings than say U of Idaho and Idaho St.

To me, Butler is a good comparison on application increases as an effect from athletic success. Wake Forest and Vanderbilt as well. (Wake Forest probably the best since they are very similar in size and scope of TU).
You are trying to describe two oranges as an apple and an orange. The factors you are describing are distinctions without a difference when the issue is what attracts kids attention. The University of Miami is similar and has had similar results from the success of their football program. Even Stanford acknowledges their needle has moved versus the Ivys because of football. Conclusion: Regardless of school size, public or private, academic reputation or what ever factor you want to hairsplit, football gets kids attention regardless of their economic or academic standing and applications and revenues go up when football is successful. Its undeniable.

It is easy to say how much football has had to do with the explosion of the school, because the University President says it did (see above and elsewhere). I know from personal experience. I used to live there and I visit two or three times a year. I've watched the changes first hand. See the thread about Women's Tennis if you want to read a fact specific account of why Boise is who they are and we are still knocking our heads against a wall.
 
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You are trying to describe two oranges as an apple and an orange. The factors you are describing are distinctions without a difference when the issue is what attracts kids attention. The University of Miami is similar and has had similar results from the success of their football program. Even Stanford acknowledges their needle has moved versus the Ivys because of football. Conclusion: Regardless of school size, public or private, academic reputation or what ever factor you want to hairsplit, football gets kids attention regardless of their economic or academic standing and applications and revenues go up when football is successful. Its undeniable.

It is easy to say how much football has had to do with the explosion of the school, because the University President says it did (see above and elsewhere). I know from personal experience. I used to live there and I visit two or three times a year. I've watched the changes first hand. See the thread about Women's Tennis if you want to read a fact specific account of why Boise is who they are and we are still knocking our heads against a wall.
We are on the same page...I used to have almost daily arguments with a colleague of mine at TU who wanted the university to drop football because he was tired of dealing with their discipline issues (this was when Burns was coach). My argument was always that dropping football or even dropping a competition level would cripple Admissions recruiters trying to get kids to come to TU. At the time, TU basketball was still giving TU the national exposure in the NCAA Tournament.

I think my point regarding the Boise St/UCF comparison is who they are as a university versus who TU is. There are a lot more factors influencing their applicant pool than what is influencing TUs, but yes, successful athletics has an impact on both.

In the end, I'm on the same side...we need successful high level athletics at TU to continue to draw large applicant pools.
 
Review the history of Villanova and the NCAA basketball success when they won their first NCAA championship. There is no question in my mind that university profile and application numbers are directly correlated to successful decision 1 athletic programs.
I do not believe the majority of trustee’s agree with me. They are wrong.
 
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Unfortunately, I can say, without a doubt, that there are some trustees, administrators, and a relatively large number of faculty who do not care for athletics. Don’t believe me? Check out what goes on at a faculty senate meeting whenever there’s even a mention of something moving forward in athletics.

To win the battle we’re facing on the outside with perception, attendance, coverage, etc... we have to win the battle on the inside first. We can’t kill ourselves from the inside and expect good things to happen on the outside.
 
Unfortunately, I can say, without a doubt, that there are some trustees, administrators, and a relatively large number of faculty who do not care for athletics. Don’t believe me? Check out what goes on at a faculty senate meeting whenever there’s even a mention of something moving forward in athletics.

To win the battle we’re facing on the outside with perception, attendance, coverage, etc... we have to win the battle on the inside first. We can’t kill ourselves from the inside and expect good things to happen on the outside.
Damn hippies
 
Damn hippies
The damn hippies are not being realistic in their goals of 'for the good of the university'. The majority of the people being marketed to as students are not damn hippies. They need to release their pent up anger at high school bullies.
 
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If we're being honest, the vast majority of students who aren't themselves athletes also don't appear to care all that much for athletics presently. Whatever visibility it brings to prospective students isn't translating well to actual student fans.
 
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41lT0-FmPZL._SX355_.jpg
 
If we're being honest, the vast majority of students who aren't themselves athletes also don't appear to care all that much for athletics presently. Whatever visibility it brings to prospective students isn't translating well to actual student fans.
Kids from SLU and Houston / KC don't typically care much about TU sports. It's usually the Tulsa area kids that end up getting hooked these days (from my experience and the people I knew a couple years ago)
 
If we're being honest, the vast majority of students who aren't themselves athletes also don't appear to care all that much for athletics presently. Whatever visibility it brings to prospective students isn't translating well to actual student fans.

That’s a separate issue, but still stems from the same overall problem. Students don’t invest themselves into TU athletics because they themselves don’t perceive them as “big time.”

A perception change is hard to do, but it would take more than TU to do it. The city would have to get behind TU and they’ve shown over and over again they dgaf about TU or its athletic programs.
 
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I think it takes us becoming nationally relevant (I.E. regularly ranked in the top 25 during the season) for a couple of seasons for students and the city start really showing Wichita / SMU levels of support. I mean, we've seen it happen before. Nolan's tenure looks like a prime example. I think TU football was on the verge of breaking through to the city and students but then we had the Blankenship downturn and we lost a ton of momentum.
 
I think it takes us becoming nationally relevant (I.E. regularly ranked in the top 25 during the season) for a couple of seasons for students and the city start really showing Wichita / SMU levels of support. I mean, we've seen it happen before. Nolan's tenure looks like a prime example. I think TU football was on the verge of breaking through to the city and students but then we had the Blankenship downturn and we lost a ton of momentum.


Hmmm.....
Thinking about the home game after Graham won at ND. Maybe 16K in attendance?

Kragthorpe revived, Graham maintained then declined, Blankenship increased a little then declined.

TU football has to consistently be in a bowl, be in the top 25 most years, and win 3/4 of the P5 games to generate increased attendance at this point.
 
Hmmm.....
Thinking about the home game after Graham won at ND. Maybe 16K in attendance?

Kragthorpe revived, Graham maintained then declined, Blankenship increased a little then declined.

TU football has to consistently be in a bowl, be in the top 25 most years, and win 3/4 of the P5 games to generate increased attendance at this point.
That was a fun win but ND wasn’t very good that season. That win didn’t get a ton of ESPN publicity other than them ragging on ND for losing to us.

When was the last time our football (or basketball) team was ranked in the top 25 DURING the regular season? 08-09 maybe? That’s a decade ago this season. We’re probably abpproaching 2 decades since the basketball team was ranked.

That’s where we need to be to get fan support.
 
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That was a fun win but ND wasn’t very good that season. That win didn’t get a ton of ESPN publicity other than them ragging on ND for losing to us.

When was the last time our football (or basketball) team was ranked in the top 25 DURING the regular season? 08-09 maybe? That’s a decade ago this season. We’re probably abpproaching 2 decades since the basketball team was ranked.

That’s where we need to be to get fan support.

Notre Dame went 8-5 that season with a bowl win over Miami (Fl). They weren’t a top 10 team but they weren’t complete crap either.
 
We finished the season ranked in 2012.

Better non-con scheduling might help some attendance issues. A consistently good product probably wouldn't hurt either.
 
Notre Dame went 8-5 that season with a bowl win over Miami (Fl). They weren’t a top 10 team but they weren’t complete crap either.
I know. I didn't mean that our win wasn't good. I just don't think we got a ton of publicity for it. When we beat them they were already 4-4 and they lost to a really mediocre Navy team the week before. They weren't getting any hype from anyone. They finished the year strong, but that didn't help us in getting fans the next week.
 
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We finished the season ranked in 2012.

Better non-con scheduling might help some attendance issues. A consistently good product probably wouldn't hurt either.
I know we did. Finishing ranked doesn't really help as much because hype tends to die down a bit in the offseason. That's why I said DURING the season. Being in that top 25 during the season means that the major news outlets are going to have to mention you week in and week out. Basically, you're getting the best publicity money can buy. That really helps students feel like their team is legitimate and casual Tulsans know that there's a quality product to be had in Chapman stadium.
 
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Being ranked during the regular season would certainly help. This would get us much needed weekly publicity along with national and local exposure. Being ranked in the final poll is terrific but gets you very little recognition outside of the day the poll comes out.

Better performances against P5 teams would also help...especially the likes of OSU, Arkansas, OU, etc... Our record over the last 20 years against P5s has been abysmal. If we could beat the likes of OSU or Arky it would raise the perception of the program and garner increased causual fan support.
 
Being ranked during the regular season would certainly help. This would get us much needed weekly publicity along with national and local exposure. Being ranked in the final poll is terrific but gets you very little recognition outside of the day the poll comes out.

Better performances against P5 teams would also help...especially the likes of OSU, Arkansas, OU, etc... Our record over the last 20 years against P5s has been abysmal. If we could beat the likes of OSU or Arky it would raise the perception of the program and garner increased causual fan support.
Totally agree.
 
I think some of that is scheduling. We're scheduling against OU & OSU who have had tons of success over the last decade. Maybe scheduling against mid-level P5's (even away games) would give us a better chance at early season W's and give us a better chance at being ranked with a string of early and midseason wins. Minnesota was a really good team for us to play as was Iowa State. We need more of those kinds of schools. Schools that usually end up squarely in the middle of the Big 10, ACC, Pac-12, etc... We could probably compete with an Arizona much like Houston has.
 
For reference, in 2008 we beat 0 P5's but we were putting up ridiculous numbers on offense and were undefeated. We entered the top 25 after winning 7 straight. The next week we played UCF on a Sunday, on broadcast ESPN, at 7 PM (against the NFL) and we had 30K attendance after only drawing 21k the week before (when we were 6-0 coming in) That's the kind of thing being ranked will do for you.
 
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For reference, in 2008 we beat 0 P5's but we were putting up ridiculous numbers on offense and were undefeated. We entered the top 25 after winning 7 straight. The next week we played UCF on a Sunday, on broadcast ESPN, at 7 PM (against the NFL) and we had 30K attendance after only drawing 21k the week before (when we were 6-0 coming in) That's the kind of thing being ranked will do for you.
And we paid the guy coaching that team the same amount it would have taken to fund a parking facility. The parking facility would still be here.
 
I also wonder how much OSU being really good and attracting more local casual fans has hurt our attendance? Probably no way of quantifying it but I certainly believe it's been a factor.
 
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