He spent one year at Nebraska. Transferred here and redshirted for one year. Then played 2 years for us and led the team in 3 point shooting. Why did he leave as a graduate transfer? He could have made the difference this year. We have no one to replace him for either his size or shooting. Could easily have won every close game and finished 2-3 in Conference. WHY DID HE LEAVE???
Jariah Horne goes off for 24 against USC. That's what we are missing.
- Thread starter dldaily
- Start date
I really miss Jeriah. His post spin move was nice and he was a great spot shooter. My only guess as to why he left was that he wanted a bigger role. I think he thought he’d be 6th man and have to deal with KES and Haywood competing for playtime. He certainly would’ve been the best big guy on our roster
He said he wanted a chance to play in the NCAA Tournament.
Richie has a smooth release and produces as much in half the time as two players who each regularly see more minutes then Richie.
Pretty obvious why Horne left when you consider that and look at who got minutes over Horne last year. An NCAA bid may be part of it, but being able to actually play the time you deserve is probably much bigger part of it.
Pretty obvious why Horne left when you consider that and look at who got minutes over Horne last year. An NCAA bid may be part of it, but being able to actually play the time you deserve is probably much bigger part of it.
He gets plenty of playing time at Colorado...he made the right decision
The best 3pt defense under Haith was him holding Horne to a 34% 3pt shooter
Was he going into slumps, or was Haith pulling him, cutting his minutes and limiting what he did on offense?
Horne is playing 4 minutes less per game at Colorado than his last year at Tulsa. I think his transfer was solely that he thought his chances of playing in the NCAA Tournament was better at CU.
He would have made a big difference at TU this year. He’s averaging 11.5 pts and shooting 50.7% fgs, 45.9% 3-pts and 92.1% fts. He’s a damn good shooter.
He would have made a big difference at TU this year. He’s averaging 11.5 pts and shooting 50.7% fgs, 45.9% 3-pts and 92.1% fts. He’s a damn good shooter.
You don't even need to know much about basketball to see II is 100% correct.
Complete players are great, they are hard to find. They also are only one part of a teams success.
One of my biggest problems with Haith is player usage and the way he talks about it, something fans on here do a lot. Last years team with Horne and Jackson is a good example. Haith's comments and use of Richie this year is another.
This isn't middle school or high school ball, we want to see improvement in their game but player development is not the agenda winning is.
Last year that meant Jackson getting plenty of playing time even if he couldn't shoot from the outside because his drive is practically unstoppable and his defense can be elite and is always damn good.
If you want to stop him you have to pack the inside, advantage to outside shooters who can hit the open shot (see Horne, now Richie) as there are now two defenders sucked into the lane to deny the drive.
On defense he can simply take an offensive player away unless they are a low post player because of his athleticism and bulldog attitude, now the game is four on four. Take away the right player and offenses will really struggle to be efficient. Advantage Tulsa, especially when you consider his ball denial steals and rebounding from a guard spot.
Would it be better if he was more confident and shot without thinking when open on the outside? Yes, but some of that is the damn coaching again. Would it be awesome if he hit 50% and shot four 3pters a game? Oh hell yeah. He would also probably have left for the NBA.
Haith talks about wanting Richie to drive more and rebound, ok great, but we need someone to hit the outside shot, that's Richie, so much like last year with Jackson his game deficiencies are irrelevant because he provides exactly what we need which is why we win when he is on the floor and shooting.
Play the players in combination who give you the best chance to win and let your specialist do what they do best and use them appropriately.
Grain of salt in this, Haith isn't even playing the statistically best players as is and certainly not the ones who pass the "eye test". He isn't playing or developing the young guys either. At this point it is clear that Joiner and Rachal are the only players who are getting the logical minutes they deserve. Haywood and KES are being overplayed, Jackson is being underplayed (although it is getting better), and Richie is not only underplayed, but for this team his usage rate is way too low.
Name a freshman and they are being badly underplayed. Williams development and playing have completely disappeared, he is way short the minutes at this level he needs to progress and make the biggest jumps.
Maybe covid is affecting this, but overall this has been an issue for Haith his entire coaching career with spots of him getting it right.
He doesn't start at Colorado either, but he usually finishes depending on matchups. Yes, he is still a catch and shoot guy, but effectively. Plays a little more inside at times with CU, and actually rebounds! Anyway it's all academic, but we do miss him and he would have been the go to guy despite Brandon and others.
His minutes are down, what are his FGA and per 40 minutes doing? Sometimes play doesn't gave to equate to more mins, sometimes it means being able to do what you are good at and be on the court in a continuous manner, not 3m here 3m there, 1m here, 2m after the time out something Haith likes to do.
Most of what you said I totally agree with. I have been the loudest proponent to play the best combination and place them in the best positions to be successful. I learned this from Coach Smith when he nearly won the Mo Valley tournament his first year with a bad team and playing a 6'5" guy at center.
My 'really' comment was related to Rachel being so much better than Horne. Yes, Rachel is more athletic and is in position better and plays better defense than Horne. But Rachel is not a forward and is very poor with ball control. His outside shooting not near to Hornes level. Boards about equal.
As for the underdevelopment of the freshman I totally agree. However how many times have the basketball critics complained of Haith overplaying his roster. I am not sure what the freshman can do and maybe Haith just dose not like them so lets them ride pine. As for me, the times I have seen them play meaningful minutes I have not been impressed yet. As I said, maybe Haith should have given them more time but at the expense of his experienced players I think you would have heard an outcry from this board if we were not winning doing that.
The problem with this team comes down to shooting. We are just bad. Richie is pretty good but hurts us on defense which holds down his minutes. We give up way to many wide open shots when he is in the game. Haith thought he had a very good shooting team. Unfortunately this is not the case.
Again, I agree with your comments but think this is more related to the talent than coaching. The coaching issue is recruiting, although I do have trouble understanding the KES minutes. No decent to good bigs, no forwards, no point guards. Makes it tough to win.
I wasn’t aware that Haith played him 1 minute here, 3 minutes there, etc. He seems to have the same role at CU that he did at TU. Not a starter but 1st off the bench and playing at crunch time and end of games.
Not sure what your FGA’s question means but he had 1.1 more shots/game at TU, 1.4 more 3-pts shots at TU and .3 more ft’s at TU.
Bottom line is I think most agree he would have made a difference if on this year’s TU team.
My point is he is being allowed to play on the court. Despite having fewer minutes.
If he played Horne so consistently why did we have so many game threads where the posters were asking why he wasn't playing.
We talk about Haith's subbing patterns constantly and consistently every year from the start to the finish. This is an issue, it was clearly an issue for Horne. Are little winning streak/run last year cane when both Horne and Jackson were given more playing time and consistent playing periods.
Nearly every post game interview with Haith involves some sort of statement of I have to figure out how to get X more time, on the court, more involved in the game.
We do all agree he would make the team better, if he was allowed to play his game.
Well here is the thing, if its talent that's the issue you have a hard time explaining our wins versus Houston and Memphis.
So what's the difference between that team and the one we currently see?
It's all in the minutes. When Haywood and/or KES play more mins than Richie we lose. If the minutes are about equal we win. Jackson's minutes are similar and the result is too (it was there last year to see too if you looked).
Sounds simple but we play our best ball when Richie has lots of minutes, because he is a threat to shoot. End of story. You can't claim his defense is holding his minutes down because KES is twice as bad and often has more mins. Can't say his offense because his production dwarfs both KES and Haywood.
It's not the players. It's the coach choosing who is playing. Which causes other issues like Rachal in ball hog mode and our freshman getting zero mins and therefore zero experience.
I really liked Horne. I thought he contrIbuted on both ends of the court & did a lot of little things to help the team. He would be instant offense coming off the bench. He could post a player up & hit a turnaround jumper, when needed. He could hit 3s. He wasn’t very athletic but played with a high basketball IQ.
I think he would have helped us a lot this season, but not enough to get us over the hump (NCAA caliber). Horne playing & Wainright coaching might have gotten us there, but still probably not quite there. As much as I hate to say it, Horne made the right move with his goal being to play in the NCAA tournament.
I think he would have helped us a lot this season, but not enough to get us over the hump (NCAA caliber). Horne playing & Wainright coaching might have gotten us there, but still probably not quite there. As much as I hate to say it, Horne made the right move with his goal being to play in the NCAA tournament.
People keep saying he wanted to play in the NCAA. I don't want to seem to be attacking anyone but someone will have to point out to me how this isn't a BS line and specifically meant to be a jab at Haith, from Horne.
Colorado has never finished with 12 wins in PAC play, finished higher than fourth, and only won the post season tournament once. Colorado has one NCAA win in the last decade and a mere four appearences. Before which they are virtually devoid of basketball history going back till the 50s.
The PAC has arguably been worse than the AAC in Horne's college career, and Colorado has been a weak team in that league. Tulsa just came off a conference championship and was a viable bubble team depending on tourney play and definitely a threat to win the auto bid.
So did he leave because Colorado was a Mecca of NCAA opportunity? Or could he see the writing on the wall and knew how much playing time he would see over Haywood and KES. Did he look and realize there was little chance Haith would use him properly.
Before some point out KES plays a different position, his intended purpose is the same as Horne outside shooter. KES already gets mins over Richie who has the same role as Horne and I would argue now that Richies minutes have gone up some again, KES is now sucking up Idowu and Ugboh mins. Arguing Horne produces more than Haywood won't hold much water either, as so does Richie.
Just saying people in here seem to act like colorado is some sort of predetermined NCAA team when historically or even under the current and possibly most successful coach they have had that is not the case and certainly not with where the two schools finished the previous year.
Colorado has never finished with 12 wins in PAC play, finished higher than fourth, and only won the post season tournament once. Colorado has one NCAA win in the last decade and a mere four appearences. Before which they are virtually devoid of basketball history going back till the 50s.
The PAC has arguably been worse than the AAC in Horne's college career, and Colorado has been a weak team in that league. Tulsa just came off a conference championship and was a viable bubble team depending on tourney play and definitely a threat to win the auto bid.
So did he leave because Colorado was a Mecca of NCAA opportunity? Or could he see the writing on the wall and knew how much playing time he would see over Haywood and KES. Did he look and realize there was little chance Haith would use him properly.
Before some point out KES plays a different position, his intended purpose is the same as Horne outside shooter. KES already gets mins over Richie who has the same role as Horne and I would argue now that Richies minutes have gone up some again, KES is now sucking up Idowu and Ugboh mins. Arguing Horne produces more than Haywood won't hold much water either, as so does Richie.
Just saying people in here seem to act like colorado is some sort of predetermined NCAA team when historically or even under the current and possibly most successful coach they have had that is not the case and certainly not with where the two schools finished the previous year.
Good discussion TU4ever. I think this is what makes good internet without name calling/demeaning
However, not sure you are correct on your assumptions. We have won and loss and not necessarily related to Ritchie, Jackson, KES and Heywoods minutes.
We beat Memphis and Houston with Ritchie playing like 21 mins or so and Jackson against Memphis only playing 14 minutes. We lost to WSU with Jackson playing 26 mins and Ritchie playing 30 mins with heywood at 23 and KES 18.
Not trying to disagree with you on Ritchie and Jackson as I can’t see why KES gets so many minutes but not sure any of this totally connects with wins and losses.
That’s why to me it is a talent issue and lack of appropriate pieces of the team puzzle. Again back to recruiting.
Still agree I wish I knew what we had on the freshman and it scares me that a seasoned coach, good or bad, does not think the freshman can help a struggling team.
Also agree with you on Rachal trying to do it all. Sad for his future.
@ Memphis win by 7
Jackson 25 (9pts 2 rebs 2 assts 2 stls)
Richie 24 (14pts 4rebs)
KES 25 (6pts 3rebs)
Haywood 21 (0 pts 2 rebs)
Memphis win by 1
Jackson 14 (0pts 4 rebs)
Richie 23 (started over KES, with Haywood 7pts)
Haywood 25 (2pts 1 reb)
KES 27 (6pts 2 assts)
I wonder why the game here was so much closer?
Houston win by 1
Jackson 34 (7pts 4rebs 3stls)
Richie 22 (Started over Haywood, 5pts 2rebs)
Haywood 21 mins (9pts 4rebs) the game Haywood attacked the basket, finally scared for his minutes
KES 26 (0-4 from 3pt 7pts 4rebs)
Also of note this was the last real consistent development game for William's who got 20 mins since then it's no time or extreme mop ups
In these three big wins it's pretty clear, KES is gonna give you 6 and 2/3. Anytime Jackson is getting consistent mins he will stuff the stats, even on limited mins he gives you quality and these don't show his defensive effect on the floor.
Haywood is gonna give you nothing.
Richie and Jackson are the key, just as Jackson and Horne were the key last year. Jackson with an outside shooter on the floor is a pain in the ass for any team. He rebounds like a forward and scores in the paint, matching him up with a stretch four who plays like a guard, well that's just good basketball.
Wichita St home loss by 4
Jackson 28min (4pts 4rebs 1 ass)
Richie 10 (3pts 2assts 1reb) after this game is when I thought Haith figured it out and Richie would get consistently more playing time. We looked much better with him on the court. 1-3 from three.
Haywood 31(11pts 7rebs) 10 of his 11 shots came from 3, he made three of them.
KES 17 (8pts 3rebs 2stls) 6 of his 7 shots came from 3, he made one.
@WSU loss by 19
Jackson 26 60%fg (12pts 9rebs 2stls 1asst)
Richie 30 (7pts 6rebs 1asst) Started over Haywood 1-5 from 3pt
Heywood 25 (7pts 2rebs 3assts 2stls) 0-4 3pt
KES 19 (5pts 2 rebs) 1-4 3pt
This game was mostly about Rachal (5pts ugly game) and the WSU bigs Udeze and Wade wen 8/10 from the field and had some free throws to add on.
Even so just looking you can see that KES should be playing 15-20mins which will still let him get his 6 and 2 while giving Jackson and Richie the time they need. Richie also continues to out produce Haywood on per min production and any game Haywood is getting 30m in is going in the lose column almost automatically. Especially if it means Richie isn't getting minutes, which leads us to the biggest example of the difference
@Houston loss
Jackson 24 (3pts 1reb)
Richie 7 (3pts on 1-2 shooting) He started over KES though you can't tell.
Haywood 34 (5pts 5rebs 2assts 1stl) 1-5 from 3 only 1-6 overall
KES 28 (3pts 2rebs) 1-4 from 3 only 1-9 overall a ball handling guard who had zero assists and zero steals in 28mins.
By far Jackson's worst game in production. I wonder why?
The thing is that the combination that leads to Tulsa winning (it also prevents these series where we play 5 on 4 or 5 on 3 for ten minutes out of the game) is both Richie and Jackson getting minutes while Haywood and KES play less minutes.
Not shuffled around so they can still get on the floor. KES and Haywood should not exceed 20 mins ever and really 15 is plenty, their production doesn't indicate they should get more. It doesn't change KES output and while Haywoods does increase his return is much less than either Jackson or Richie. When Haith said if you aren't producing you won't play after this game these two players were who he should have been talking about. Apparently it was Ugboh, Idowu, and Richie 🤷♂️
Richie and Jackson should be averaging 25+ and pushing 30mins along with Joiner and Rachal. Ugboh and Idowu need to split 30-35 mins in the post with Idowu getting he majority of those. KES and Haywood off the bench, along with Williams who should probably be getting around 10 and some appropriate spot mins for the other freshman or Earley to develop.
That's not what we are getting, what we are getting is two players who bring little to the table getting massive minutes. On offense Haywood makes us less efficient, while on defense KES is often confused and a liability. That they spend a lot of time on the court together is why Rachal is getting frustrated, its playing with one hand behind your back. Its dumb.
That's six games, three wins, three losses, you can go through other games and see similar patterns with similar outcomes. I have been monitoring this for a while because this team should be an absolute nightmare for the opposition and it isn't. Last year Jacksons lack of mins and then sudden increase and Tulsa's winning were clearly tied together, so I paid attention all year to how he has been used and the mins. It's been consistent.
So as much as I hate to say this, the team would likely be NCAA caliber and would definitely had more wins if playing Haywood and KES was not an option.
I believe is this is not something new we have all asked questions about why certain players have gotten minutes on the Tulsa teams over the years. I firmly believe this sort of thing and Horne's ability to see even more coming with KES and Haywood gaining elgibility is a big reason he left. I also think some internal issues of pride are why Haith is refusing to make what has to be a blatantly obvious decision. That I think is something Wainwright did get Haith to do, swallow his pride and play who really works, not who he thinks should.
Jackson 25 (9pts 2 rebs 2 assts 2 stls)
Richie 24 (14pts 4rebs)
KES 25 (6pts 3rebs)
Haywood 21 (0 pts 2 rebs)
Memphis win by 1
Jackson 14 (0pts 4 rebs)
Richie 23 (started over KES, with Haywood 7pts)
Haywood 25 (2pts 1 reb)
KES 27 (6pts 2 assts)
I wonder why the game here was so much closer?
Houston win by 1
Jackson 34 (7pts 4rebs 3stls)
Richie 22 (Started over Haywood, 5pts 2rebs)
Haywood 21 mins (9pts 4rebs) the game Haywood attacked the basket, finally scared for his minutes
KES 26 (0-4 from 3pt 7pts 4rebs)
Also of note this was the last real consistent development game for William's who got 20 mins since then it's no time or extreme mop ups
In these three big wins it's pretty clear, KES is gonna give you 6 and 2/3. Anytime Jackson is getting consistent mins he will stuff the stats, even on limited mins he gives you quality and these don't show his defensive effect on the floor.
Haywood is gonna give you nothing.
Richie and Jackson are the key, just as Jackson and Horne were the key last year. Jackson with an outside shooter on the floor is a pain in the ass for any team. He rebounds like a forward and scores in the paint, matching him up with a stretch four who plays like a guard, well that's just good basketball.
Wichita St home loss by 4
Jackson 28min (4pts 4rebs 1 ass)
Richie 10 (3pts 2assts 1reb) after this game is when I thought Haith figured it out and Richie would get consistently more playing time. We looked much better with him on the court. 1-3 from three.
Haywood 31(11pts 7rebs) 10 of his 11 shots came from 3, he made three of them.
KES 17 (8pts 3rebs 2stls) 6 of his 7 shots came from 3, he made one.
@WSU loss by 19
Jackson 26 60%fg (12pts 9rebs 2stls 1asst)
Richie 30 (7pts 6rebs 1asst) Started over Haywood 1-5 from 3pt
Heywood 25 (7pts 2rebs 3assts 2stls) 0-4 3pt
KES 19 (5pts 2 rebs) 1-4 3pt
This game was mostly about Rachal (5pts ugly game) and the WSU bigs Udeze and Wade wen 8/10 from the field and had some free throws to add on.
Even so just looking you can see that KES should be playing 15-20mins which will still let him get his 6 and 2 while giving Jackson and Richie the time they need. Richie also continues to out produce Haywood on per min production and any game Haywood is getting 30m in is going in the lose column almost automatically. Especially if it means Richie isn't getting minutes, which leads us to the biggest example of the difference
@Houston loss
Jackson 24 (3pts 1reb)
Richie 7 (3pts on 1-2 shooting) He started over KES though you can't tell.
Haywood 34 (5pts 5rebs 2assts 1stl) 1-5 from 3 only 1-6 overall
KES 28 (3pts 2rebs) 1-4 from 3 only 1-9 overall a ball handling guard who had zero assists and zero steals in 28mins.
By far Jackson's worst game in production. I wonder why?
The thing is that the combination that leads to Tulsa winning (it also prevents these series where we play 5 on 4 or 5 on 3 for ten minutes out of the game) is both Richie and Jackson getting minutes while Haywood and KES play less minutes.
Not shuffled around so they can still get on the floor. KES and Haywood should not exceed 20 mins ever and really 15 is plenty, their production doesn't indicate they should get more. It doesn't change KES output and while Haywoods does increase his return is much less than either Jackson or Richie. When Haith said if you aren't producing you won't play after this game these two players were who he should have been talking about. Apparently it was Ugboh, Idowu, and Richie 🤷♂️
Richie and Jackson should be averaging 25+ and pushing 30mins along with Joiner and Rachal. Ugboh and Idowu need to split 30-35 mins in the post with Idowu getting he majority of those. KES and Haywood off the bench, along with Williams who should probably be getting around 10 and some appropriate spot mins for the other freshman or Earley to develop.
That's not what we are getting, what we are getting is two players who bring little to the table getting massive minutes. On offense Haywood makes us less efficient, while on defense KES is often confused and a liability. That they spend a lot of time on the court together is why Rachal is getting frustrated, its playing with one hand behind your back. Its dumb.
That's six games, three wins, three losses, you can go through other games and see similar patterns with similar outcomes. I have been monitoring this for a while because this team should be an absolute nightmare for the opposition and it isn't. Last year Jacksons lack of mins and then sudden increase and Tulsa's winning were clearly tied together, so I paid attention all year to how he has been used and the mins. It's been consistent.
So as much as I hate to say this, the team would likely be NCAA caliber and would definitely had more wins if playing Haywood and KES was not an option.
I believe is this is not something new we have all asked questions about why certain players have gotten minutes on the Tulsa teams over the years. I firmly believe this sort of thing and Horne's ability to see even more coming with KES and Haywood gaining elgibility is a big reason he left. I also think some internal issues of pride are why Haith is refusing to make what has to be a blatantly obvious decision. That I think is something Wainwright did get Haith to do, swallow his pride and play who really works, not who he thinks should.
If TLDR
Jackson and Richie need mins over 25
Haywood and KES need 15 mins max
=
Tulsa wins
All the other stuff is just the proof using 3 wins and 3 losses vs the combo of Houston, Memphis, and WSU that we have played twice (home and away) and are post season caliber teams. We swept Memphis, got swept by WSU, and split with Houston.
Jackson and Richie need mins over 25
Haywood and KES need 15 mins max
=
Tulsa wins
All the other stuff is just the proof using 3 wins and 3 losses vs the combo of Houston, Memphis, and WSU that we have played twice (home and away) and are post season caliber teams. We swept Memphis, got swept by WSU, and split with Houston.
My point is Jackson and Ritchie are getting 25+ minutes except for a couple games. One of which we won. I agree KES is an offensive and defensive liability. Have no idea why but I would give him about 6 minutes a game and devide the other minutes between Ritchie heywood and Jackson. Heywood pretty good defender on slashing forwards and we don’t have anyone else that can do that without getting Rachal in foul trouble.
Maybe we win one maybe even two more games but no way close to NCAA tournament caliber.
We need a true PG, a decent big, (with Rey as backup for 12-15 mins/game, and a slashing stretch forward. Think Horne which is where this post started.
Last year korita and Horne filled that role decently. Korita more of a two guard but so smart he could play a wing also.
Igbanu opened up the floor for Jackson and joiner. No talent like that now.
Sorry I still not impressed with the talent. Maybe a new coach will arrive, every player decides to return and we will find out if your theory is correct.
I just showed you the issue. I highlighted and bolded it for you. You are incorrect that Jackson and Richie have got 25m a game a bunch. That has not happened.
You also ignored the second part which is sitting the unproductive players who overall hinder the performance regardless of Richie or Jackson's mins and output. Its a two part problem in which the solution is the same. Haywoods 30mins got to Jackson and KES goes to Richie. Both get the 10mins a game and we win more.
Remember we are 330 out of 350'ish in 3 point %. That is the problem. Ritchie would improve that but Jackson not so much (1/16 for the year).
I totally understand what you are saying and if I have more time I will review each game to see if you are right but my cursory review shows that you may be right on the Houston blow out loss and the Tulane loss but not sure your theory is strong in the other wins or losses.
Joiner has been a warrior for us and I respect his will to win but not sure I would put him as a 'very good pg'.
I do agreee that Ritchi is the closet player we have to Horne and I think Haith uses them similarly. We won doing that last year but not so much this year and I believe that is because we are missing a really good big and a decent shooter outside of Ritchie.
(Igbanu and Korita).
I totally agree with you that Ritchie should get more minutes, maybe 28 minutes average a game but I am not sure I agree that we win many. more games with that or that we are sniffing NCAA with that move alone..
Great discussion and definitely something to disagree on.
The real question is could a change in bench coaching make a huge difference?
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