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Good Teams vs Talent

TU4ever2

I.T.S. Position Coach
Sep 21, 2008
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First this quote is strictly to set the table for the discussion. It is not an attack on the idea stated in it. I think it just explains why some fans have massive issues with Monty and the state of the program.

And I’ve told you before, good teams find a way to win. I hope you didn’t leave early to beat the traffic.

First Blue Ox tongue in cheek is always a chuckle.

Second I think here is the issue of disagreement. This team is not good, its talented, perhaps one of the most talented teams ever at Tulsa. Some of that has been good recruiting some has been a little bit of luck but that's always been the case at TU where borderline talent grows and works itself into NFL caliber.

Tulsa is not a good team though. Good teams don't have 3 turnovers a game and are national leaders in number of penalties and yards. Good teams are consistent, they play mistake free, and disciplined. We have decades of experience in multiple sports watching good teams beating talent.

This season we are watching something we usually see from the other side of the scoreboard, namely talent overcoming mistakes, lack of focus, and cohesion.

The Tulane was a perfect example. For the first 29:30 seconds of the game Tulsa stayed smart and worked together. Tulane grinded it out hoping for mistakes. The game was 0-0 Tulsa had zero turnovers and 3 penalties for 25 yards. We finished the game with 10 penalties for 85 yards and 3 turnovers, as well as a turnover on downs inside our thirty yard line.

Between the last 21 seconds of the first half and the end of the third quarter Tulsa had 3 turnovers, a turnover on downs inside its thirty, 4 penalties for 40 yards and found itself down 14-0 having left 0-7 points on the field to end the half, and with time outs left that could have been used to at least make Tulane snap the ball in a bad position to end the half. The fourth quarter we had 3 penalties for 20 yards, zero turnovers, got an interception of our own and outscored Tulane 30-10 leaving zero points on the field.

I'm happy for the kids, they do a ton of work every year and deserve the rewards. I can't help thinking what kind of team some of our past coaches like Kragthorpe, or Dobbs, or Graham could turn this talent into.
 
I cannot imagine a more miserable existence as a fan than watching my favorite team wreck the college football landscape with top 25 wins, heroic comebacks, SC top 10 plays, led by an All-American LB on national TV every week and my only thought being “They get too many damn illegal motion penalties”.
 
I cannot imagine a more miserable existence as a fan than watching my favorite team wreck the college football landscape with top 25 wins, heroic comebacks, SC top 10 plays, led by an All-American LB on national TV every week and my only thought being “They get too many damn illegal motion penalties”.
Funky things cross his brain patterns.(translation: convoluted funky thoughts)
 
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His analysis is not necessarily wrong. This team has yet to play a complete game and makes boneheaded and unnecessary mistakes. Honestly, TU should have beaten SMU about 38-10 last week. This week, 24-10. I'm OK with the physical penalties, the occasional hold and pass interference but the number of offsides last night is really unacceptable.

I love the heart and the drive of this team but it could be a lot better. And some of our shortcomings are driven and exacerbated by the head coach.
 
His analysis is not necessarily wrong. This team has yet to play a complete game and makes boneheaded and unnecessary mistakes. Honestly, TU should have beaten SMU about 38-10 last week. This week, 24-10. I'm OK with the physical penalties, the occasional hold and pass interference but the number of offsides last night is really unacceptable.

I love the heart and the drive of this team but it could be a lot better. And some of our shortcomings are driven and exacerbated by the head coach.

Two of the offsides were Player being overly ready to go and not watching the ball.
 
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I cannot imagine a more miserable existence as a fan than watching my favorite team wreck the college football landscape with top 25 wins, heroic comebacks, SC top 10 plays, led by an All-American LB on national TV every week and my only thought being “They get too many damn illegal motion penalties”.

I can't imagine judging a program I love and a coach by one season good season in a weird year. This attitude is how we ended up with Monty on an extension.

Imagine not understanding that Tulsa has been one of the most penalized teams in the nation every year Monty has been coached. Or that it is pure luck we have stumbled on a NFL first round pick and we still struggle to overcome our coaching because the coaching is so obviously that horrible.

Or imagine not understanding a message board discussion. This isn't even new to Tulsa we often talk about individual talent vs team work.
 
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I’ll take 5-1. We play to win.

They all count one way or the other, but let's not pretend that a 6-0 Tulsa team obliterating opponents and barrelling towards a show down for a play off spot vs an undefeated Cincy team wouldn't make us all a lot happier. I have no doubt that a Kragthorpe, Cooper or a Dobbs would have us there. I would be willing to place money that Graham and Rader would too.
 
No one is arguing we wouldn't be better off with a different coach. It's just the constant only popping in, regardless of a win or loss to say the usual Monty sucks stuff that we are all already well aware of. we all like to enjoy the wins. Yeah, they havent been pretty, but the likelihood of the committee giving us a playoff spot anyway is very unlikely. Theyd give a 2 loss SEC team a stronger consideration imo. Heck, Georgia is 4-2 and number 9 in the nation
 
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I don’t disagree on that much of this but why say this now? I can’t even think in negative terms after a game like that.

A couple points I would take issue with between this and the other thread:

1. The head coach gets credit for hiring a good staff. If we have success on defense Monty gets credit for bringing in the guy who’s doing it, same as Graham got credit for Malzahn and Morris.

2. We didn’t luck out on Zaven Collins. He wasn’t some marginal guy we took a chance on. We out-evaluated everyone else just like we have with several of our other defensive players. The staff knew he was the best player we signed in that class and were excited about him from the get-go. How much Monty was involved in the decision to offer him idk, but again he gets credit for bringing in the defensive guys who made that evaluation.
 
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No one is arguing we wouldn't be better off with a different coach. It's just the constant only popping in, regardless of a win or loss to say the usual Monty sucks stuff that we are all already well aware of. we all like to enjoy the wins. Yeah, they havent been pretty, but the likelihood of the committee giving us a playoff spot anyway is very unlikely. Theyd give a 2 loss SEC team a stronger consideration imo. Heck, Georgia is 4-2 and number 9 in the nation

This attitude is literally why we got stuck with Monty and why we still have him.

So you're telling me that Cincy who is number #7 right now has no shot at the playoff? Or that an undefeated Tulsa facing an undefeated Cincy to finish the year wouldn't be a top ten match up? Our win over OSU would have dropped us in the top 25 and climbing. Sorry no, this is a year we could take advantage of opportunity.

"This well yeah our coach sucks but don't criticize him while he is winning" is how USF found themselves where they are now after a 7-0 start and top 25 ranking. 2 winning seasons in 7 deserves a ton of criticism winning season or not.
 
I don’t disagree on that much of this but why say this now? I can’t even think in negative terms after a game like that.

A couple points I would take issue with between this and the other thread:

1. The head coach gets credit for hiring a good staff. If we have success on defense Monty gets credit for bringing in the guy who’s doing it, same as Graham got credit for Malzahn and Morris.

2. We didn’t luck out on Zaven Collins. He wasn’t some marginal guy we took a chance on. We out-evaluated everyone else just like we have with several of our other defensive players. The staff knew he was the best player we signed in that class and were excited about him from the get-go. How much Monty was involved in the decision to offer him idk, but again he gets credit for bringing in the defensive guys who made that evaluation.

1. You realize Graham was his own OC for one season, it was a losing season, we got a new OC. Monty is our OC we have had one winning season, Monty chose that OC as much as he chose the DC.

2. No we didn't much like many TU stars we took a chance on a borderline kid, who turned into something special. He was too slow to be a top level college safety and undersized to play linebacker. Like Garrett Mills before him he was a good smart player who has put in a ton of work to develop his physical attributes as well as some natural development. Are we going to say Navy evaluated David Robinson better than anyone else?

To that point even more is Jerry O, which is why considering how his father developed, his personal success, and our recent experience with Zaven, not recruiting Owen was dumb.
 
The point of this thread for discussion was about the different views that at least two groups on this board have about this team.

For me this is very much like our 2001 NIT championship.

Am I happy for the kids? Hell yes.
I am superstitious to the point of picking against Tulsa in contest because that's how I started the season so why change?

Am I excited to see how far they can take this season? Yes.

Is it glaringly obvious we are winning despite our HC sabotaging basic decisions? Yes.

Am I worried that in this time of instability that we have a coach who could tank the program in a permanent way? Yes. It took 10 years to recover from the nosedive Buzz started. We may not have ten years to recover from Monty.

The whole back of our house is on fire, but the curb appeal is high with that back lighting.
 
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You can have your opinion, just stop popping in only when the team is down, and then disappear, and then reappear after the game just to say the same stuff every post. Some of us like enjoying a win. None of us want Monty here. But the team is winning. And I for one would rather the team win, the coach leave, then have us continue to lose and him leave by getting fired. Seems you just want the team to lose so you can have your way and get him gone. And yes, I do believe Cincy could get in, but I still think the committee will do what they can to pick a power 5 team instead, citing the better competition and whatever else they want to make up. That's why I said highly unlikely, and not impossible.
 
1. You realize Graham was his own OC for one season, it was a losing season, we got a new OC. Monty is our OC we have had one winning season, Monty chose that OC as much as he chose the DC.

2. No we didn't much like many TU stars we took a chance on a borderline kid, who turned into something special. He was too slow to be a top level college safety and undersized to play linebacker. Like Garrett Mills before him he was a good smart player who has put in a ton of work to develop his physical attributes as well as some natural development. Are we going to say Navy evaluated David Robinson better than anyone else?

To that point even more is Jerry O, which is why considering how his father developed, his personal success, and our recent experience with Zaven, not recruiting Owen was dumb.

Graham was a defensive guy, so yeah, him running the offense that year was ridiculous. But he mostly had influence on what we did on defense and had a hand picked defensive coach that he took with him everywhere. That defense was garbage throughout his tenure(averaged 94th in yards allowed and 83rd in points), but he gets credit for hiring good offensive coaches, who were mostly responsible for his success. Monty never tried to run the defense, but he hired a great defensive coach that is responsible for our success this year and he gets credit for that.

Zaven Collins was 6’4 220lbs coming out of high school. For comparison OU’s two LB commits are 6’4 220 and 6’3 205. He was undersized compared to who?

We didn’t throw a late offer at a guy we weren’t sure would pan out. Tulsa offered well before his senior season because they were sure they wanted him and I can say that at least one person thought he was the prize of the 2017 class. Nobody can predict that someone will become a first round pick, but they had a pretty good idea that he was a freak.
 
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This is a good thread, even though I don't agree with 4ever. Everyone got their two cents in and it was fairly civil.
 
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