Giving Russia a pass?

astonmartin708

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Right…but the only actual action that I’m aware is green lighting the pipeline for Russia. I’ve been around far too long to pay attention to what politicians say. I look at what they do and thus far I haven’t seen this Admin do a damn thing regarding Russia other than make them rich.
It’s possible that it might be part of negotiations to gain concessions elsewhere (like in cyber security). I think without the full behind-the-scenes perspective our message board analysis is likely to be flawed. One way or the other. The fact that Germany was lobbying us to do it also doesn’t help our positioning.
 

lawpoke87

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It’s possible that it might be part of negotiations to gain concessions elsewhere (like in cyber security). I think without the full behind-the-scenes perspective our message board analysis is likely to be flawed. One way or the other. The fact that Germany was lobbying us to do it also doesn’t help our positioning.

Our message board analysis seldom has behind the scenes information yet that’s what we do here on the crossfire board. Doesn’t change the fact that to date Biden hasn’t done a damn thing to Russia other than make them $$. Now that could change in the coming days or weeks but as of now it is what it is.
 

TUMe

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Honestly, I think that Biden is doing well for a senile president. He leaks private conversations with the head of our most consistent ally. He argues twice with Johnson that Johnson did not include the name of the member from Africa...which everyone heard him do. While the G7 wasn't a faillure it also wasn't a rousing success for us. And Putin has already said he isn't going to let N out of Russian Prision alive.
 

astonmartin708

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Right…but the only actual action that I’m aware is green lighting the pipeline for Russia. I’ve been around far too long to pay attention to what politicians say. I look at what they do and thus far I haven’t seen this Admin do a damn thing regarding Russia other than make them rich.
We shall see. The only reason the pipeline was at issue was because it was going to cost US gas producers $$$.
 

TUMe

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We shall see. The only reason the pipeline was at issue was because it was going to cost US gas producers $$$.
Sorta true. But it also brings Germany closer to Russia.

This may come as a shock to you, but one of the jobs of the President of the United States is to look out for the interests of the US (certainly not the only one.) But the interest of Putin is to look out for Russia (and Putin.) So why start off a summit with Russia by giving him what he wants while at the same time not disagreeing that Nav should never leave jail. Putin could phone in his responses. We already know what they are. They get the pipeline and Nav dies in prison.

Yes, US business suffers..too bad so sad. Along with the money, the US gets jobs. Biden is a soft negotiator.
 
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astonmartin708

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Sorta true. But it also brings Germany closer to Russia.

This may come as a shock to you, but one of the jobs of the President of the United States is to look out for the interests of the US (certainly not the only one.) But the interest of Putin is to look out for Russia (and Putin.) So why start off a summit with Russia by giving him what he wants while at the same time not disagreeing that Nav should never leave jail. Putin could phone in his responses. We already know what they are. They get the pipeline and Nav dies in prison.

Yes, US business suffers..too bad so sad. Along with the money, the US gets jobs. Biden is a soft negotiator.
I don’t think there’s a real threat of Germany allying with Russia, no matter how they tie themselves as far as gas supplies go, but there is a risk of Germany moving away from its support of the US and our agenda if they are forced (against their will) to buy from us. The Navalny thing is quirky. He’s not going to overthrow Putin. It’s a sideshow. Our real goal is stopping the cyber warfare, disinformation campaigns, etc... that are being sponsored by the Russians. That’s the real aim. We could care less if Navalny dies in prison or if he’s assassinated in the street.
 

watu05

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Yes, US business suffers..too bad so sad. Along with the money, the US gets jobs. Biden is a soft negotiator.
Opening meeting. What was he supposed to “get”? This idea of a single meeting resulting in substantial changes seems unrealistic.
 

Gmoney4WW

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Putin's flattery of recent US presidents continues. He treated Trump like he wasn't the buffoon he was. Now he gushes about how mentally on top of it all Biden is.
 

aTUfan

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buffoon. no. arrogant. unorthodox and unwilling to kiss a$$ like his predecessors.

now we have mister snowflake continuing to apologize for our supereriority and grestness
 

watu05

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Putin's flattery of recent US presidents continues. He treated Trump like he wasn't the buffoon he was. Now he gushes about how mentally on top of it all Biden is.
Which one of the two do you think fell for it?
 

watu05

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The past four years has made Russia into a partisan issue. Prior to 2016 the US view of Russia was same the across party lines: it was the US's biggest threat. Yet as posted above, Russia has actively meddled in two national elections, paid bounties for killing American soldiers, taken down key our largest pipeline, staged ransomware attacks on many businesses, etc.

From Gallup polls:

There are noticeable partisan differences in perceptions of the greatest enemy of the U.S, with Republicans naming China as the top country and Democrats citing Russia. While 76% of Republicans name China as the greatest enemy, 43% of independents and 22% of Democrats do so. Conversely, close to half of Democrats name Russia (47%) compared with one in four independents (24%) and just 6% of Republicans.
 

astonmartin708

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The past four years has made Russia into a partisan issue. Prior to 2016 the US view of Russia was same the across party lines: it was the US's biggest threat. Yet as posted above, Russia has actively meddled in two national elections, paid bounties for killing American soldiers, taken down key our largest pipeline, staged ransomware attacks on many businesses, etc.

From Gallup polls:

There are noticeable partisan differences in perceptions of the greatest enemy of the U.S, with Republicans naming China as the top country and Democrats citing Russia. While 76% of Republicans name China as the greatest enemy, 43% of independents and 22% of Democrats do so. Conversely, close to half of Democrats name Russia (47%) compared with one in four independents (24%) and just 6% of Republicans.
I would say they are both great threats, though one is more of a long term problem than the other.
 

watu05

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China is much more of an economic issue than Russia which has been working to undermine our system of government since Vlad arrived. There's no evidence than China has interfered in our elections or is trying to export its system of government elsewhere, largely because they consider it uniquely Chinese. Given our interdependence economically and the longer term nature of our issues, there should be ways to avoid going to war with China. Russia is working hard to weaken faith in our democracy and our relationships with our allies. Hard to ignore that they are having some success.
 

astonmartin708

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China is much more of an economic issue than Russia which has been working to undermine our system of government since Vlad arrived. There's no evidence than China has interfered in our elections or is trying to export its system of government elsewhere, largely because they consider it uniquely Chinese. Given our interdependence economically and the longer term nature of our issues, there should be ways to avoid going to war with China. Russia is working hard to weaken faith in our democracy and our relationships with our allies. Hard to ignore that they are having some success.
They are both problems. Like I said, China is a long term threat that could be greater than that of Russia. Their economic power could eventually create havoc. Russia is a much more immediately pressing problem; however I don’t believe they are on the same level of dominance as China is. I think we could destabalize Russia and defeat their efforts much easier than we could destabalize and deal with China.
 

watu05

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They are both problems. Like I said, China is a long term threat that could be greater than that of Russia. Their economic power could eventually create havoc. Russia is a much more immediately pressing problem; however I don’t believe they are on the same level of dominance as China is. I think we could destabalize Russia and defeat their efforts much easier than we could destabalize and deal with China.
Agree that China is an economic powerhouse and doing some things internally that we don't like (although their views toward muslims are not much different than ours, particularly under Trump. China has millions more and had internal terrorist acts).
As a country, we have no appreciation for the military invasion, drug addiction and other forms of unequal intimidation that we inflicted on the Chinese. Given the number of US military actions around the world, including Korea and VN, one could argue that China has far more to worry about the US using military force than vice versa.
 

astonmartin708

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Agree that China is an economic powerhouse and doing some things internally that we don't like (although their views toward muslims are not much different than ours, particularly under Trump. China has millions more and had internal terrorist acts).
As a country, we have no appreciation for the military invasion, drug addiction and other forms of unequal intimidation that we inflicted on the Chinese. Given the number of US military actions around the world, including Korea and VN, one could argue that China has far more to worry about the US using military force than vice versa.
You see, I don't agree with you there. While I think the average US opinion of Muslims does more harm to us than good, I also don't think that our treatment of Muslims has been nearly as bad as that of the Uyghurs in China, even when you include the civilian casualties associated with our military conflicts. I also think China has been much more aggressive as of late, especially with their development of artificially constructed island bases along southeast Asian trade routes outside their normal sphere of influence. They are a nation that wants to shift the balance of global dominance from 2 superpowers to 3. 3 superpowers can never last as two will gang up on the third.
 

watu05

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You see, I don't agree with you there. While I think the average US opinion of Muslims does more harm to us than good, I also don't think that our treatment of Muslims has been nearly as bad as that of the Uyghurs in China, even when you include the civilian casualties associated with our military conflicts. I also think China has been much more aggressive as of late, especially with their development of artificially constructed island bases along southeast Asian trade routes outside their normal sphere of influence. They are a nation that wants to shift the balance of global dominance from 2 superpowers to 3. 3 superpowers can never last as two will gang up on the third.
Agreed about the harm our opinions do to us. As for Uyhgers, I don't like China's policies anymore than you do, but some of my American friends of Chinese descent are more understanding, so I try to listen. They point out that China directly borders on central Asia which is largely muslim and historically fraught. The US is thousands of miles away from the middle east, yet we have invaded it twice in the last 30 years and still have troops there. They point to more than a hundred of thousand dead Iraqis and millions more displaced into poverty. We think people should trust us, but that view may not be shared by everyone else. Finally after 9/11 and after Trump's inauguration, the US immediately began treating Muslims as threats. Fortunately our constitution provides some protections that the Uyghers do not have.

As for China being aggressive, I'm not sure what people expected of a country with the world's first or second largest economy; one that has a long history of being invaded militarily by western and Asian countries. A country that borders two countries where the US fought wars: Korea and Vietnam. So far China's expansion has been close to China, although those are areas which have largely been patrolled and dominated by the US even though the US is many thousands of miles away.

China's belt and road initiative is an economic one that is free of an effort to install communism or any particular form of government. Chinese expansion has focused more on building economic ties through investment while the US spends more money on military ties and the armed forces. It's an interesting contrast.

I guess what I bridle at is the that drum beat that one must view China solely as a "threat' which is likely to be a self fulling prophecy. I prefer a "challenge" and a recognition that in an increasingly populated and interconnected world that we need to find ways to coexist and cooperate rather than focus on military conflict. Been there; done that, no thanks.

Again, compared to Russia's actual attacks on US institutions, its neighbors, our infrastructure and our businesses, its interesting to see the priority given to China' despite its not having done those things.
 
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Gmoney4WW

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The muslim religion does not advocate killing. I love how you throw a radical sect of a religion as being the religion itself. Millions upon millions of Muslims can't stand the idea of jihad and how it has been subverted. I'd say believe what you wamt, but I know you do. Do you support all the religious wars that Christians have been involved in? But you respect that religion?
 
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lawpoke87

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Sounds like Biden is on top of the latest potential Russian hacking.

 

watu05

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For years the US has ignored Russian cyber attacks on both the US government and US businesses, at least at a head of state level until Biden warned Putin on his recent visit. The warning had little effect.

The Solar Winds attack started in 2019 and was at the time according to Microsoft "the largest, most sophisticated attack the world has ever seen". There have been repeated attacks since then. The most recent one is likely even larger. The hackers are demanding $70M from businesses up and down the US and European supply chain. More than 200 companies may have had to shut down their supply chain management systems. These are direct attacks on US and European economies and a contributor to inflation as supply lines are shut down and prices are bid up.

Russia has been given a pass for far too long, not only for these attacks but also for meddling in our elections, misinformation campaigns, offering bounties for killing US soldiers in the middle east, etc..
 
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lawpoke87

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To be fair, we’ve given everyone a free pass regarding hacking and theft. No country has stolen more intellectual property from the US over the last 30 years than China. Yet, like Russia, are response has been almost non existent. “Stop doing that” hasn’t worked.
 
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TUMe

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If we are giving Russia a pass (which we should absolutely not do) then we are also giving China a pass on this and other things, like claiming the Pacific Ocean is their property.
 
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TUMe

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Opening meeting. What was he supposed to “get”? This idea of a single meeting resulting in substantial changes seems unrealistic.
What you say is true, I agree. But one good idea would be not to do dumb things. When he goes to a shop here in the US and they ask him a question, he gets notes from his pocket and reads them.

Both you and Aston say he is better than Trump. Following the Jan 6 autrosity that is a pretty low hurdle.
 

astonmartin708

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So the Guardian has put out a report detailing supposedly leaked Russian documents on Putin’s personal directive to support Trump’s election…. Not sure of the validity of these claims or their documentation. Just wanted to point it out because it seems like they at least tried to do some leg work on research.

 

lawpoke87

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Assuming the information is true and assuming our intelligence agencies have more info than The Guardian, why are we giving Putin and crew a pass on this? Moreover, we actually seem to be helping Putin on several fronts.
 

TUMe

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Opening meeting. What was he supposed to “get”? This idea of a single meeting resulting in substantial changes seems unrealistic.
He was expected to get anything nor did I say he was supposed to get anything.

But neither was he expected to give Putin everything he wanted. The pipeline was pretty high of the list of things that Putin was looking for. The money that US evil oil companies didn't get will be going to Russian evil oil companies.

On another subject let's talk about your comments on China. It is possible for both China and Russia to be our enemies and harm our ecconomy.
 

astonmartin708

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He was expected to get anything nor did I say he was supposed to get anything.

But neither was he expected to give Putin everything he wanted. The pipeline was pretty high of the list of things that Putin was looking for. The money that US evil oil companies didn't get will be going to Russian evil oil companies.

On another subject let's talk about your comments on China. It is possible for both China and Russia to be our enemies and harm our ecconomy.
But we get to keep Germany as an ally. It’s a steep cost, but maybe a necessary on considering Germany is probably our most powerful ally in terms of power, $$$, and influence over other allies.
 

aTUfan

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la la land
WH earning from foreign gov:

hrc -- uranium one. clinton foundation
bho - in my 2nd term we can do what we want.
biden - hunter ukraine, heavily vested/invested in china and russia
trump -- a hotel ??
 

watu05

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Not a question of earning, it’s whether Putin supported Trump because he would destabilize American democracy. On a correlation basis there support for the claim.. Causality may be open to discussion and investigation. Regardless, there is less trust in our elections now than 5 years ago.
 

lawpoke87

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Going back to the thread title. So why does the Biden Admin continue to give Russia (and China for that matter) a pass?
 

TUMe

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China owns the entire Southern Pacific Ocean. The World Court says that they don't; but how many Nuclear Weapons does the World Court have. Xi smiles more than Putin but from day to day it is an open question which one is the more dangerous.