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Get Ready For Trumpvilles....

Yeah Dems are going to have to settle on a criticism here. Can’t criticize him for both the terrible economic effects of lockdowns AND for not forcing states to lockdown harder and longer. Gotta pick one
No, I can criticize him for ignoring or minimizing the danger to the American public throughout the early months of the crisis and that necessitating lockdowns. I don't have to pick one. The lockdowns were necessitated via people believing the following statements:

Jan. 22 - "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming from China and we have it totally under control. It's going to be just fine" to CNBC

Jan. 24 - "We only have five people. Hopefully, everything’s going to be great. They have somewhat of a problem, but hopefully, it’s all going to be great. But we’re working with China, just so you know, and other countries very, very closely. So it doesn’t get out of hand. But it’s, you know, it’s something that we have to be very, very careful with, right? We have to be very careful.”

Trump, at a campaign rally in Des Moines, Iowa

Feb. 2 - "“We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.” to Fox News

Feb. 10 - “Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. I hope that’s true. But we’re doing great in our country. China, I spoke with President Xi, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s going to all work out fine.”

Feb. 12 - “In our country, we only have, basically, 12 cases and most of those people are recovering and some cases fully recovered. So it’s actually less.”

Feb. 24 - “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!” Trump on Twitter.

Feb. 26 - “When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

Feb. 28 - “Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. … One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.’ That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over. … And this is their new hoax.”

Trump, at a campaign rally in North Charleston, S.C.

Mar 5th - “Gallup just gave us the highest rating ever for the way we are handling the CoronaVirus situation. The April 2009-10 Swine Flu, where nearly 13,000 people died in the U.S., was poorly handled.”

Mar 6th - “Anybody that wants a test can get a test. That’s what the bottom line is.” This was false. The testing capacity was 75K at this time.

Mar 10th - “This was unexpected. … And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.

Mar. 11th - “The vast majority of Americans, the risk is very, very low.”


That's nearly 3 months of denial, minimization, and outright lies during the most important phase of the virus' spread. This is and always will be Trump's baby in its entirety.
 
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No, I can criticize him for ignoring or minimizing the danger to the American public throughout the early months of the crisis and that necessitating lockdowns. I don't have to pick one. The lockdowns were necessitated via people believing the following statements:

Jan. 22 - "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming from China and we have it totally under control. It's going to be just fine" to CNBC

Jan. 24 - "We only have five people. Hopefully, everything’s going to be great. They have somewhat of a problem, but hopefully, it’s all going to be great. But we’re working with China, just so you know, and other countries very, very closely. So it doesn’t get out of hand. But it’s, you know, it’s something that we have to be very, very careful with, right? We have to be very careful.”

Trump, at a campaign rally in Des Moines, Iowa

Feb. 2 - "“We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.” to Fox News

Feb. 10 - “Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. I hope that’s true. But we’re doing great in our country. China, I spoke with President Xi, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s going to all work out fine.”

Feb. 12 - “In our country, we only have, basically, 12 cases and most of those people are recovering and some cases fully recovered. So it’s actually less.”

Feb. 24 - “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!” Trump on Twitter.

Feb. 26 - “When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

Feb. 28 - “Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. … One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.’ That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over. … And this is their new hoax.”

Trump, at a campaign rally in North Charleston, S.C.

Mar 5th - “Gallup just gave us the highest rating ever for the way we are handling the CoronaVirus situation. The April 2009-10 Swine Flu, where nearly 13,000 people died in the U.S., was poorly handled.”

Mar 6th - “Anybody that wants a test can get a test. That’s what the bottom line is.” This was false. The testing capacity was 75K at this time.

Mar 10th - “This was unexpected. … And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.

Mar. 11th - “The vast majority of Americans, the risk is very, very low.”


That's nearly 3 months of denial, minimization, and outright lies during the most important phase of the virus' spread. This is and always will be Trump's baby in its entirety.

Yeah, I just really don’t buy that. It’s certainly fine to criticize him for his response. There are plenty of reasons. But in a country like ours this outbreak was coming no matter what, and even if by some miracle we managed to completely avoid it (even though a major outbreak was ongoing before we even detected our first case), we’d still end up in economic ruin. The very few smaller countries that managed to avoid major outbreaks through lockdowns are suffering economic damage equal to or greater than ours. The economic fallout was a certainty regardless of the path.

The worst case scenario, which was also plausible in a country like ours, is Peru. They implemented some of the strictest measures in the world, are in the midst of an economic catastrophe, and still had a massive outbreak resulting in the worst death rate in the world.
 
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Yeah, I just really don’t buy that. It’s certainly fine to criticize him for his response. There are plenty of reasons. But in a country like ours this outbreak was coming no matter what, and even if by some miracle we managed to completely avoid it (even though a major outbreak was ongoing before we even detected our first case), we’d still end up in economic ruin. The very few smaller countries that managed to avoid major outbreaks through lockdowns are suffering economic damage equal to or greater than ours. The economic fallout was a certainty regardless of the path.

The worst case scenario, which was also plausible in a country like ours, is Peru. They implemented some of the strictest measures in the world, are in the midst of an economic catastrophe, and still had a massive outbreak resulting in the worst death rate in the world.
We have 4% of the world's population yet account for more than 25% of the world's cases. We have a very slightly lower death count than our percentage of cases when compared to the total number of deaths, but we're also in a far more developed nation than many countries and we have a much less concentrated population which should have acted to our benefit. Our closest realistic comparison in performance is Brazil which has a terrible economy, and has had a generation of corrupt leaders. There are other countries that were hit sooner than us who didn't have the benefit of two oceans between them and the virus. There were also other countries who handled it just as poorly and I'll judge them just as harshly. (The UK for example)

You can say all you want that "this was coming no matter what" but denying that the situation could have been improved if we had taken appropriate precautionary measures sooner and treated the situation with more care is just imbecilic. Just ask yourself... "How did Trump repeatedly lying to the American public improve our situation?"
 
We have 4% of the world's population yet account for more than 25% of the world's cases. We have a very slightly lower death count than our percentage of cases when compared to the total number of deaths, but we're also in a far more developed nation than many countries and we have a much less concentrated population which should have acted to our benefit. Our closest realistic comparison in performance is Brazil which has a terrible economy, and has had a generation of corrupt leaders. There are other countries that were hit sooner than us who didn't have the benefit of two oceans between them and the virus. There were also other countries who handled it just as poorly and I'll judge them just as harshly. (The UK for example)

You can say all you want that "this was coming no matter what" but denying that the situation could have been improved if we had taken appropriate precautionary measures sooner and treated the situation with more care is just imbecilic.

It’s not imbecilic and there’s no reason to take a civil conversation and make it uncivil.

I also am not denying that there are some things that could be better if different actions were taken and better leadership were shown early on. For instance, I think one of the simplest and most effective measures Trump could have taken to reduce loss of life is to establish strict guidelines around long term care facilities and made it a point to assist states in allocating heavy resources and testing there. The disproportionate impact on the elderly was something we knew from the very beginning and the White House made no effort there. Not to mention the total lack of seriousness he shows about everything on a daily basis.

But that and other valid criticisms do not change my opinion that criticizing him on the economic impacts just doesn’t really fly. Especially if the criticism is paired with “we should have taken earlier and more drastic actions” which would only worsen the economic impact. Because it’s not as if once cases get low during lockdown you get to re-open the economy without consequence. Once you do you get another outbreak and have to lockdown again. This is happening in Australia now. It’s a strategy with no exit strategy. Every country is dealing with major economic fallout, even the ones that you would identify as successes.
 
Reminiscent of the Hooverville's of old....
This thread seems to meander from the original subject, if there was one.

By the use of the "Hooverville" term it seems to be about the economy going South. In fact there are no Hoovervilles...yet. Part of the reason for this is the infusion of cash a couple of months ago. That money is gone. The R's and D's worked together (for once.) and should again.

What we see now is HRH Nancy trying to put together some needed money with a bunch of projects she wants. Things that don't help the poor or the people facing eviction. Let's get some money to families. Queen Nancy has stalled that for over a month, with time outs for ice cream and trips to the beauty shop. But this is now. There is time for another stimulus package. It could be done next week. The main reason it is not is that there is a pending election. Pity
 
Unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month per figures just released. Pretty remarkable considering the current pandemic and very good news.
 
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Unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month per figures just released. Pretty remarkable considering the current pandemic and very good news.
That certainly is good news, though I'm curious about the pay level of the replacement jobs vs. the original ones.
 
This thread seems to meander from the original subject, if there was one.

By the use of the "Hooverville" term it seems to be about the economy going South. In fact there are no Hoovervilles...yet. Part of the reason for this is the infusion of cash a couple of months ago. That money is gone. The R's and D's worked together (for once.) and should again.

What we see now is HRH Nancy trying to put together some needed money with a bunch of projects she wants. Things that don't help the poor or the people facing eviction. Let's get some money to families. Queen Nancy has stalled that for over a month, with time outs for ice cream and trips to the beauty shop. But this is now. There is time for another stimulus package. It could be done next week. The main reason it is not is that there is a pending election. Pity
I think the big sticking point has been the money for the state governments, many of whom are in the tank right now. It's not like they're trying to tie this funding to the green New Deal or something. It's something that's probably necessary. What worries me is the level of debt we're at now. No matter if it's 1 Trillion or 2 Trillion that we add to the debt... we're already at a worse level than after we came out of WWII. There's also a lot of talk about the dollar being fundamentally unsound going forward as the continuing global currency reserve.
 
Unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month per figures just released. Pretty remarkable considering the current pandemic and very good news.
The numbers are a bit deceiving as well bc of the blue run over reactionary stance that act as a self inflicted wound. The Dems use this as a tool to manipulate the economy to fit their narrative.
 
That certainly is good news, though I'm curious about the pay level of the replacement jobs vs. the original ones.

Average hourly earnings rose 4.7% from a year ago. Real analysis is difficult due to the unprecedented circumstances surrounding the pandemic. However on its face that appears to be a decent number.
 
This thread seems to meander from the original subject, if there was one.

By the use of the "Hooverville" term it seems to be about the economy going South. In fact there are no Hoovervilles...yet. Part of the reason for this is the infusion of cash a couple of months ago. That money is gone. The R's and D's worked together (for once.) and should again.

What we see now is HRH Nancy trying to put together some needed money with a bunch of projects she wants. Things that don't help the poor or the people facing eviction. Let's get some money to families. Queen Nancy has stalled that for over a month, with time outs for ice cream and trips to the beauty shop. But this is now. There is time for another stimulus package. It could be done next week. The main reason it is not is that there is a pending election. Pity

Both sides are wanting random crap thrown into the bill.
A new FBI building? Why in the hell would that be a part of a relief bill for the people?

Any "relief" bill needs to be just that. No extra's... period.
 
I think the big sticking point has been the money for the state governments, many of whom are in the tank right now. It's not like they're trying to tie this funding to the green New Deal or something. It's something that's probably necessary. What worries me is the level of debt we're at now. No matter if it's 1 Trillion or 2 Trillion that we add to the debt... we're already at a worse level than after we came out of WWII. There's also a lot of talk about the dollar being fundamentally unsound going forward as the continuing global currency reserve.
Hypothetically if the dollar were to be unsound than that means the Yen is 50 times worse. At the end of the day, the world economy As a whole is overinflated and needs to be adjusted. State and Federal governments are separate for a reason. Why should the Fed give anything to the state in the form of a bailout? Let the states suffer until the people finally change leadership. They protest for everything else these days!
 
The numbers are a bit deceiving as well bc of the blue run over reactionary stance that act as a self inflicted wound. The Dems use this as a tool to manipulate the economy to fit their narrative.

I still laugh that Trump has his supporters convinced this is all a Dem conspiracy.

Here is a good read on conspiracy theories and why some people are quick to believe them...
 
I still laugh that Trump has his supporters convinced this is all a Dem conspiracy.

Here is a good read on conspiracy theories and why some people are quick to believe them...
High causation of conspiracy theories today....

  • A belief that the status-quo of society should be valued above all else
 
Average hourly earnings rose 4.7% from a year ago. Real analysis is difficult due to the unprecedented circumstances surrounding the pandemic. However on its face that appears to be a decent number.
Do you think that hourly earnings might have increased due to low income jobs like waiters, hotel employees, etc... having been driven out of the industry (at least temporarily) thereby reducing the lower bound for the measurement?
 
I still laugh that Trump has his supporters convinced this is all a Dem conspiracy.

Here is a good read on conspiracy theories and why some people are quick to believe them...
I don’t blame the Dems exclusively. There are other factors that are involved that are common on a global scale as the world deals with the virus. I do believe that the Dems are currently intentionally the causation of a large percentage of the US unemployment numbers. Weather they are doing this bc they are true believers in the virus or just to spite Trump, the majority of roads all lead back to them!
 
I don’t blame the Dems exclusively. There are other factors that are involved that are common on a global scale as the world deals with the virus. I do believe that the Dems are currently intentionally the causation of a large percentage of the US unemployment numbers. Weather they are doing this bc they are true believers in the virus or just to spite Trump, the majority of roads all lead back to them!
How are Dems "causing" the unemployment numbers? What policy have they enacted that's caused unemployment?
 
Yeah, we shut down because of the Dem's. The virus is fake. All these people dying, are dying because they are imagining they have a virus. It's all in their psychosomatic heads. The pubs didn't want us to shut down, but they let the dems have their way. Fake news.
 
Do you think that hourly earnings might have increased due to low income jobs like waiters, hotel employees, etc... having been driven out of the industry (at least temporarily) thereby reducing the lower bound for the measurement?

That explanation is certainly plausible. Like I said above it’s hard to make any real meaningful conclusions due to these extraordinary circumstances on the wage growth number.
 
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It lacks candor to complain about people's situation from the lockdown, while saying it should have began sooner.
 
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It lacks candor to complain about people's situation from the lockdown, while saying it should have began sooner.

Not to mention that the same people complaining are still advocating lockdowns and keeping these people out of work. Makes zero sense outside of exploiting people who might be down and out for political gain.
 
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Yeah, we shut down because of the Dem's. The virus is fake. All these people dying, are dying because they are imagining they have a virus. It's all in their psychosomatic heads. The pubs didn't want us to shut down, but they let the dems have their way. Fake news.
It’s not that it doesn’t exist, The response has just been overblown. The number of people infected is irrelevant. It has a 97% recovery rate and has killed less than 1% of the total population. Depending on whose numbers you believe, the death toll has only been at the lowest 90,000 with the highest 160,000. Most that died have been over 65, or had underlying medical issues that together resulted in their death. It’s just not worth the hype.
 
Shutting down causes unemployed. It also causes people to dependent on assistance from the government.
Democrats weren't the only people calling for shutdowns.... quite a few shutdowns happened in R controlled states (Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Utah, Louisiana)

Not only that, but also the fact that shutdowns weren't just a ploy to put people out of work. No one wants millions of Americans to be out of work or the economy to go into a recession.

giphy.gif
 
Democrats weren't the only people calling for shutdowns.... quite a few shutdowns happened in R controlled states (Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Utah, Louisiana)

Not only that, but also the fact that shutdowns weren't just a ploy to put people out of work. No one wants millions of Americans to be out of work or the economy to go into a recession.

giphy.gif
There were in the beginning Republicans that advocated for the shutdown and to a certain degree still do advocate for some form of shutdown. They are not above criticism! What I’m saying is that there is only a literal handful of Republicans left who are advocating for shutdown while there are many Democrats currently advocating and campaigning on their stance of shutdown
 
It’s not that it doesn’t exist, The response has just been overblown. The number of people infected is irrelevant. It has a 97% recovery rate and has killed less than 1% of the total population. Depending on whose numbers you believe, the death toll has only been at the lowest 90,000 with the highest 160,000. Most that died have been over 65, or had underlying medical issues that together resulted in their death. It’s just not worth the hype.
Less than 1% of the population is still an astronomical number you jackazz. The number is closer to 180K. Thats 180K people with families who love them.

Republicans threw hissy fits for months when a couple people died in a revolt in Libya. They started two multi-decade wars that cost ~$5 Trillion and 7,000 American citizens' lives as a result of 1500 people being killed in terrorist attack. Now, when HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people are dying you're saying the response is overblown.

Before this is all over we're likely to have lost as many citizens as we did from combating the Nazis and imperialist Japan in WWII. Heck, in the Civil War we 'only' lost 2% of the US population. I'm sure those deaths have been "overblown" too.
 
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Less than 1% of the population is still an astronomical number you jackazz. The number is closer to 180K. Thats 180K people with families who love them.

Republicans threw hissy fits for months when a couple people died in a revolt in Libya. They started two multi-decade wars that cost ~$5 Trillion and 7,000 American citizens' lives as a result of 1500 people being killed in terrorist attack. Now, when HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people are dying you're saying the response is overblown.

Before this is all over we're likely to have lost as many citizens as we did from combating the Nazis and imperialist Japan in WWII. Heck, in the Civil War we 'only' lost 2% of the US population. I'm sure those deaths have been "overblown" too.
Overblown is a word created by 'evil' men.
 
Less than 1% of the population is still an astronomical number you jackazz. The number is closer to 180K. Thats 180K people with families who love them.

Republicans threw hissy fits for months when a couple people died in a revolt in Libya. They started two multi-decade wars that cost ~$5 Trillion and 7,000 American citizens' lives as a result of 1500 people being killed in terrorist attack. Now, when HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people are dying you're saying the response is overblown.

Before this is all over we're likely to have lost as many citizens as we did from combating the Nazis and imperialist Japan in WWII. Heck, in the Civil War we 'only' lost 2% of the US population. I'm sure those deaths have been "overblown" too.
Death is death. I have lost family members just like you. I understand that pain. I also understand and respect the cycle of life. We loose far more people from Cancer and heart disease yearly than from the virus and cancer and heart disease are on a pandemic level but yet no extreme measures have been taken to prevent or even curb their death rates on the same level as the virus. Why, because there is more money in the medicine than the cure. In the case of the virus, people just need time to heal. (97% recovery). So looking at it from a wholistic level, it does become overblown!
 
before covid, we were in trumpville; highest employment on record and the economy humming along. What's wrong with that.
Before Covid, we were in Obamaville with little to no change from the rates of change during Obama's post Great Recession rates.
 
Death is death. I have lost family members just like you. I understand that pain. I also understand and respect the cycle of life. We loose far more people from Cancer and heart disease yearly than from the virus and cancer and heart disease are on a pandemic level but yet no extreme measures have been taken to prevent or even curb their death rates on the same level as the virus. Why, because there is more money in the medicine than the cure. In the case of the virus, people just need time to heal. (97% recovery). So looking at it from a wholistic level, it does become overblown!
I don't believe cancer and heart disease are communicable.
 
Cancer deaths are now running significantly higher than at this time last year and still rising. Unfortunately this rise was forecast due to the lockdown as thousands upon thousands of people weren’t able to get scans, testing, etc... When all is said and done the lockdown as it’s related to cancer treatment may kill more than Covid itself.

Another strange stat is the total years lost due to death from Covid (based on average life expectancy) is still less than the common flu. Doesn’t give the family members of those who we’ve lost comfort but does illustrate the number of the elderly who have passed.
 
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Just for reference, what is the life expectancy we are talking. From birth or from present age. I have a couple of friends who are in their mid-80's. One had surgery inside his head, although it might not be called brain surgery. He couldn't talk for over a month. He is back at the gym walking almost an hour 5 times a week. I mean at a normal pace and no cane or walker. Another golfs a few times a week and walks at the same gym. I would not say either has a negative life expectancy. It is not so simple when you are talking another persons life.
 
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Hypothetically if the dollar were to be unsound than that means the Yen is 50 times worse. At the end of the day, the world economy As a whole is overinflated and needs to be adjusted. State and Federal governments are separate for a reason. Why should the Fed give anything to the state in the form of a bailout? Let the states suffer until the people finally change leadership. They protest for everything else these days!
Actually, this is exactly how the economy was envisioned and set-up to function 240 years ago by Hamilton. While Jefferson and Madison thumbed their noses at it, they also admitted it worked and allowed the US, in the early days to overcome things like the war of 1812, as well as set up trade with more established countries.
 
If the dems sweep in nov, look for dc to implement California type policies.

Illegals get to vote
illegals get freebies
more taxes
free collage
free Health care for all
monthly stipend for people who dont work
defund ice
defund police
open border
more Seattle and Portland
hate speech police
my way or the highway
congress will change the rules
Illegals won't get to vote unless they become citizens. Now, they may make it easier, especially with DACA, for that pathway to citizenship but since they've been here legally since they were small children, most working AND paying taxes, why is that an issue? And if you say they're not paying taxes, that's just false. The only way they would not have payroll and income taxes withheld is if their employer were employing them illegally.

More taxes...only if you make over $400k a year. It certainly won't impact me and probably 90% of this board. Free college- eh. I'm not on board with this but TCC already guarantees kids from Tulsa Co. who graduate from HS with a 2.5 GPA or higher, a free 2 years towards an associates degree.

Health Care- are we talking health care or insurance? In any case, neither of these should have ever been privatized anyway. Just as you contend that owning a gun is a God given right, healthcare should be considered that. When it become a for profit industry, the quality and access to health care decreased making the population in general less healthy and the potential to be a burden on the system. Instead of a proactive system that worked on preventing illness, we are reactive and only treat people when they feel bad leading to an over-burdened system in many cases. Also, the for profit model is really bad for rural areas of the country and you'd think the GOP would recognize their base and want to help in that area.

Defund police- this isn't actually anything more than a catch phrase. You obviously haven't listened to a word Biden has said on this because he is adamant that defunding the police is not on the table, but reform is as well as adding additional resources to address the mental health issues police are encountering and are not adequately trained to deal with appropriately.

Keep talking about Portland and Seattle when the FBI has already released findings the majority of the violence in places where protests are happening is being instigated by right wing groups i.e. Proud Boys, Boogaloo, etc.

Hate Speech Police: SCOTUS ruled a long time ago that free speech can be limited to exclude that which incites, enflames, or is particularly hateful against race and ethnicity.

My way or the highway: You mean like what the GOP has been doing for 4 years? Hell, they've been doing it even longer with the majority in the Senate. McConnell failed to act on 50+ US appeals court judge nominees because he was in charge. He admitted so in an interview with Hannity on Faux News. And yet the GOP has the gall to speculate that Biden and Harris will pack the courts? McConnell has been packing the courts for 4 years. I prefer to think of it as balancing the courts. The federal court system should not be partisan or ideological one way or the other. It should be neutral and only review laws to ensure they are neither biased or restricting in the way they are applied with regards to the rights of individuals as outlined in the Constitution.
 
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Because it’s not as if once cases get low during lockdown you get to re-open the economy without consequence. Once you do you get another outbreak and have to lockdown again. This is happening in Australia now. It’s a strategy with no exit strategy. Every country is dealing with major economic fallout, even the ones that you would identify as successes.

This discussion implies that there are two choices: do nothing or totally lock down. There are a series of middle measures that could limit spread and get people back to work that the US is not supporting nationally. Wearing masks, increased testing, contract tracing and encouragement for social distancing and mask wearing. Even Dr. Fauci supports those would greatly reducing the impact. Why do we only talk about extremes?
 
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