Fallwell

[astonmartin708]

Apparently the modern evangelical concept of marriage is that it is "Between a Man and a Woman... and another Man..."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-with-evangelical-power-couple-idUSKBN25K1ZO

This is the kind of crap that makes me say that lots of "Christians" are Christian in name only. Let's add it to the list of Embezzlement, Pedophilia, and Militarism that we've seen from certain Church Leaders over the past 30-40 years. Makes me sad for the actual people out there who try and follow the teachings of Christ to have to be associated with these guys.

 

[TU_BLA]

Apparently the modern evangelical concept of marriage is that it is "Between a Man and a Woman... and another Man..."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-with-evangelical-power-couple-idUSKBN25K1ZO

This is the kind of crap that makes me say that lots of "Christians" are Christian in name only. Let's add it to the list of Embezzlement, Pedophilia, and Militarism that we've seen from certain Church Leaders over the past 30-40 years. Makes me sad for the actual people out there who try and follow the teachings of Christ to have to be associated with these guys.

There are tons of the "Do as I say not as I do" category of Christians, and a large majority of them are the big name evangelists with lots of money. They've been corrupted by the money, the power, and the influence. There are a lot of good Christians out there who do subscribe to the actual teachings of the Bible...just none of the them have enough money or influence to be noticed...and most avoid the political scene.

 

[lawpoke87]

Takes me back to the ole saying about the effects of "money and power". We see it everyday.

 

[astonmartin708]

Takes me back to the ole saying about the effects of "money and power". We see it everyday.

Honestly, I don't think these people are being corrupted. If they were you wouldn't have the Catholic Priest scandal. Those guys don't have money and power. (Though their dioceses might) I think it's more of a psychological predisposition that men who profess to be closer to the supernatural have in regards to excusing immoral behavior.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Diocesan priests are a different deal than Jerry Falwell. The Jerry Falwell's mostly were corrupt from the start. They just had to accumulate wealth through the gullibility/generosity of others. The priest deal is confused by the fact of celibacy. That aspect attracts some abnormal types. Those two elements of sin are quite different.

 

[astonmartin708]

Diocesan priests are a different deal than Jerry Falwell. The Jerry Falwell's mostly were corrupt from the start. They just had to accumulate wealth through the gullibility/generosity of others. The priest deal is confused by the fact of celibacy. That aspect attracts some abnormal types. Those two elements of sin are quite different.

Valid point. I just don't think that Falwell was all that innocent to start out with, and I think there are many smaller, non-mega church, leaders that do similar shiesty stuff, but they aren't famous. That's not to say that ALL church leaders are bad, but they're not being too well represented in a lot of cases.

 

[URedskin54]

To an extent we're all "do as I say not as I do" Christians. Upholding standards and ideals means by definition you're guaranteed to fall short no matter how good you are as a person, which is part of why being forgiving of others is so important. The problem is lots of people pick and choose which failings are ok and which are not based on what they feel like doing or what they feel like they deserve. Falwell himself likely has no actual moral center. Him being humiliated and run out of public life is probably not a bad thing for those of us who want to see better out of self-proclaimed leaders.

 

[HuffyCane]

I’d be surprised if the pervert rate was higher in the priesthood than among other groups. We just notice because of the nature of their work. You don’t have to prosecute sex crimes very long before you see repeated incidents of Clinton and Biden type behavior from every profession going way over the line into criminal behavior. Indeed the President went over the line at least a half dozen times.

I had one client, salt of the Earth guy. Really preppy, meek. Typical Utica Square upper class type. Two kids in private Baptist school. Runs marathons. He’s in great shape physically and financially. He’s got a cookie cutter wife we would all want to be with. Three car garage, etc.

He’s driving his 15 year old oldest home from work at midnight one Friday night (family business). He stops to get a sixer at the Quickstop. At this point his life changes. The thirty something store clerk says to him that she likes the same beer and would really like to go home with both of them and drink it. This is an obese woman missing several teeth and clearly has a drug problem. Wife is at church retreat, so for whatever reason, he says yes and they wait as her shift changes at midnight. Next thing you know, it’s a three some with the kid being violated by both the father and the cashier. It’s undisputed that the woman solicited both the boy and his father for the boy to participate with her. He had never been arrested and pre-sentencing psych profile was clean.

My guy wakes up to son complaining to Mom about being sodomized.

The State charges my guy with agg sex batt on a child 12-18. Two counts. Him individually and him as a principal for her sexual conduct. She is not charged. State gives no offer. We go to trial facing life in prison. He loses of course but it didn’t help that the jury was allowed to think the cashier is getting charged too and we can’t say she’s not in exchange for testimony because there was no formal deal. He got 43 years. It’s the same as a life sentence because of his age and the rigors of prison, just less appealable. She got nada.

I could tell you a dozen stories like that.

If he owned a church instead of a chain of health food co-ops, we’d all say it’s further proof all pastors are perverts.

Same thing with military officers. We all believe that they are all a little crazy, they just hide it real well. Hollywood plays that up. The ones we know and meet are straight arrow amazing people. But one of them over reacts and we just nod and our unfounded suspicion about all of them are confirmed. When in reality, any profession would have the same percentage of people who are “off”.

 

[TU_BLA]

I’d be surprised if the pervert rate was higher in the priesthood than among other groups. We just notice because of the nature of their work. You don’t have to prosecute sex crimes very long before you see repeated incidents of Clinton and Biden type behavior from every profession going way over the line into criminal behavior. Indeed the President went over the line at least a half dozen times.

I had one client, salt of the Earth guy. Really preppy, meek. Typical Utica Square upper class type. Two kids in private Baptist school. Runs marathons. He’s in great shape physically and financially. He’s got a cookie cutter wife we would all want to be with. Three car garage, etc.

He’s driving his 15 year old oldest home from work at midnight one Friday night (family business). He stops to get a sixer at the Quickstop. At this point his life changes. The thirty something store clerk says to him that she likes the same beer and would really like to go home with both of them and drink it. This is an obese woman missing several teeth and clearly has a drug problem. Wife is at church retreat, so for whatever reason, he says yes and they wait as her shift changes at midnight. Next thing you know, it’s a three some with the kid being violated by both the father and the cashier. It’s undisputed that the woman solicited both the boy and his father for the boy to participate with her. He had never been arrested and pre-sentencing psych profile was clean.

My guy wakes up to son complaining to Mom about being sodomized.

The State charges my guy with agg sex batt on a child 12-18. Two counts. Him individually and him as a principal for her sexual conduct. She is not charged. State gives no offer. We go to trial facing life in prison. He loses of course because they think the cashier is getting charged too and we can’t say she’s not in exchange for testimony. He got 43 years. It’s the same as a life sentence, just less appealable.

I could tell you a dozen stories like that.

If he owned a church instead of a chain of health food co-ops, we’d all say it’s further proof all pastors are perverts.

Same thing with military officers. We all believe that they are all a little crazy, they just hide it real well. Hollywood plays that up. The ones we know and meet are straight arrow amazing people. But one of them over reacts and we just nod and our unfounded suspicion about all of them are confirmed. When in reality, any profession would have the same percentage of people who are “off”.

Some of the mandatory sex offender sentences are somewhat ridiculous. I know a kid who was 17, his GF sends him a picture of herself. He saves it on his computer. The second he turns 18 the feds kick the door down and arrest him for possession of child porn. The girl was 15 at the time she sent it to him, 16 when he was arrested. Has a terrible lawyer, 18 months in fed prison, 30 years on the sex offender report list. Whenever we may get together for family functions, he has to call and ask if it's OK because we have minor children. State psychologist in the case said his behavior was perfectly normal teen behavior, no threat to anyone. The lawyer took the plea otherwise he was looking at 7-10 plus the sex offender status. They may have pleaded nolo contendere...I can't remember. I felt bad because the difference between this kid having a Playboy or Hustler vs a picture of his GF is a lifetime of headaches. Girl even said the picture wasn't asked for or solicited.

 

[HuffyCane]

The thirty year registration is a bit much. If he confessed, the computer was in his house and the girl could be located to ID her age and say she sent it to him, the 18 months is actually a bit light, especially if anyone else saw it. There’s only so much lawyers can do, especially if you tell the cops, yeah, I did it. Or they search and find the computer next to your bed.

 

[HuffyCane]

While we are telling min man sex stories, here’s a good one. So my guy is on probation for burglarizing churches in a tiny county with a pre-civil war courthouse with only one judge who has been on the bench about that long.

Probation officer sets him for a status conference in front of the judge because she wants to violate him because she can’t prove he’s gainfully employed be cause he works for himself and business is light. Judge tells him to get a job. It’s a town of maybe 1,000 people and he doesn’t have a car. No business will hire him because they all know he broke into the Baptist church and pawned the choir equipment and gold cross. He gets lucky when CVS hires him as a stock boy out on the highway. The manager was from a nearby town and didn’t know him.

So my guy works his way up at CVS, 8 pm to 8 am as a stock boy, janitor and then eventually cashier. A couple of nights a week, he is the night supervisor. They hire a girl who works weird hours. Some times in the afternoon, sometimes at night, sometimes all night. Every one else works set hours. For whatever reason, they become fast friends. She tells him about her lesbian lovers and bisexuality and how her spectrum changes. He listens but doesn’t do anything. She tells him about all the public parks she likes to have sex in. He again says that’s nice, breaks over, let’s get back to work. A string of young women from that town and the surrounding area come in to see her and it’s clear from their conversation and behavior they have or have had an intimate relationship.

He’s awkward around her because he’s just 19 and he doesn’t know how to handle older women and it’s his first time supervising employees. Weeks go by, she eventually invited him to go for a walk after work. They end up in a park. They have sex and the police arrive on a routine check of the park. They quickly determine she is 14 years of age and arrest him.

My guy had no idea she was young. She drove herself to work the short distance between her house and the CVS on a country road and worked all night at times, even on school nights. By all outward appearances, she was an emancipated adult. Turns out her Dad was a widowed ER doctor and friends with the manager. So the job was essentially daycare while he was working at the hospital, since if he left her alone, she had parties and people at the house. It violated state law.

We go to trial because there is no offer. My motion to have a pediatric expert testify that she would appear to a reasonable person as over age is excluded. State admits a still surveillance photo of the two of them at the drugstore standing close together and she looks young to impeach his statements they never had intimate contact at work and he didn’t know she was young. My rule of completeness objection is overruled and the jury doesn’t see the whole tape where she clearly appears older than him. Other surveillance photos of her working and looking 25 were excluded. I think most people would think the girl was in early twenties, a college student, if they saw her on the street or in the CVS store wearing the light blue smock. Of course she comes to court dressed like a high school girl in Abercrombie jean skirt and seashell choker and ponytail (It’s 2003).

So it took a few days but the jury finally came back guilty. So we are standing in front of the same judge that sentenced him on burglarizing churches. We both know it’s not going to end well. I’m thinking 14 years and 10 years registration and probation which is the min man with his record. My guy when asked by the judge in a gruff southern cracker drawl in this blistering hot courtroom right out of Inherit The Wind what he has to say before sentencing blurts out, “None of this would have happened if you hadn’t told me to get a job.” Which in hindsight is somewhat of a valid point. Yet at the time everyone’s eyes got as big as hen’s eggs.

The judge gave him 29 years. He’ll get out when he’s fifty. The girl was committed to the state mental hospital several months after the trial.

 

[astonmartin708]

To an extent we're all "do as I say not as I do" Christians. Upholding standards and ideals means by definition you're guaranteed to fall short no matter how good you are as a person, which is part of why being forgiving of others is so important. The problem is lots of people pick and choose which failings are ok and which are not based on what they feel like doing or what they feel like they deserve. Falwell himself likely has no actual moral center. Him being humiliated and run out of public life is probably not a bad thing for those of us who want to see better out of self-proclaimed leaders.

Good response.

 

[TU_BLA]

To an extent we're all "do as I say not as I do" Christians. Upholding standards and ideals means by definition you're guaranteed to fall short no matter how good you are as a person, which is part of why being forgiving of others is so important. The problem is lots of people pick and choose which failings are ok and which are not based on what they feel like doing or what they feel like they deserve. Falwell himself likely has no actual moral center. Him being humiliated and run out of public life is probably not a bad thing for those of us who want to see better out of self-proclaimed leaders.

Agreed. But not everyone is proclaiming themselves as the "moral right" or backing guys as the "moral right" who clearly do not hold any of those ideals. Allowing guys like Newt Gingrich who proclaims to be Christian and the need for family values as a center for the GOP's politics, but clearly does not practice that is a problem. The fact the GOP base gives guys like Newt a pass, give people like Trump a pass, yet condemn Bill Clinton and yet cannot see the hypocrisy they've created and then have the audacity to double down. Jim Jordan blasts the immoral left while he knows he turned away from boys who needed his help while being molested is the very hypocrisy which drives the left crazy. The inability to condemn equal offenders equally drives me crazy. And as I stated, the very richest of these so called Christian leaders have strayed so far from actual Christian teachings and the Gospels astounds me and how people keep getting caught up in it still amazes me. The bastardization of the prosperity gospel and it's misinterpretation to mean physical riches and a reasoning for these evangelists to keep the money people have given to the church for good works coupled with the ignoring of the "it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" scripture (which appears nearly word for word in 3 of the 4 Gospels) contradicts the amassing of wealth by guys like Falwell, Osteen, Benny Hinn, Copeland, et. al. It pisses me off that as a Christian I can do my best to follow the word, serve others, love others, forgive others, and tithe only to be denounced and called a non-Christian because I choose to vote for a candidate who vows to help others, serve others. While the right has gotten to the point of calling social welfare programs "entitlements" in an effort to save a couple hundred bucks in taxes, the right also does little to actually help people who need the help. While they intertwine their politics and faith at convenient places like pro-life, they also turn their backs on those same children they proclaim they are saving who may be born into a single parent household by withdrawing/reducing medical and social benefit programs. I can go on and on about the blatant contradictory hypocrisy but I won't. If you would denounce Bill Clinton for his affairs, then denounce Gingrich and Falwell, and every other GOP politician for their shortcomings as well.

 

[astonmartin708]

Agreed. But not everyone is proclaiming themselves as the "moral right" or backing guys as the "moral right" who clearly do not hold any of those ideals. Allowing guys like Newt Gingrich who proclaims to be Christian and the need for family values as a center for the GOP's politics, but clearly does not practice that is a problem. The fact the GOP base gives guys like Newt a pass, give people like Trump a pass, yet condemn Bill Clinton and yet cannot see the hypocrisy they've created and then have the audacity to double down. Jim Jordan blasts the immoral left while he knows he turned away from boys who needed his help while being molested is the very hypocrisy which drives the left crazy. The inability to condemn equal offenders equally drives me crazy. And as I stated, the very richest of these so called Christian leaders have strayed so far from actual Christian teachings and the Gospels astounds me and how people keep getting caught up in it still amazes me. The bastardization of the prosperity gospel and it's misinterpretation to mean physical riches and a reasoning for these evangelists to keep the money people have given to the church for good works coupled with the ignoring of the "it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" scripture (which appears nearly word for word in 3 of the 4 Gospels) contradicts the amassing of wealth by guys like Falwell, Osteen, Benny Hinn, Copeland, et. al. It pisses me off that as a Christian I can do my best to follow the word, serve others, love others, forgive others, and tithe only to be denounced and called a non-Christian because I choose to vote for a candidate who vows to help others, serve others. While the right has gotten to the point of calling social welfare programs "entitlements" in an effort to save a couple hundred bucks in taxes, the right also does little to actually help people who need the help. While they intertwine their politics and faith at convenient places like pro-life, they also turn their backs on those same children they proclaim they are saving who may be born into a single parent household by withdrawing/reducing medical and social benefit programs. I can go on and on about the blatant contradictory hypocrisy but I won't. If you would denounce Bill Clinton for his affairs, then denounce Gingrich and Falwell, and every other GOP politician for their shortcomings as well.

Most often the people that are lobbying for Judeo-Christian values (family and otherwise) seem to be the ones that have had multiple divorces, having cheated on their spouses.

 

[HuffyCane]

Most often the people that are lobbying for Judeo-Christian values (family and otherwise) seem to be the ones that have had multiple divorces, having cheated on their spouses.

Plenty of Ford salesmen driving a Mercedes home.

 

[Gold*]

A group text thread I belong to:

message one: Jerry Falwell, Jr. will not be attending the RNC this week. He prefers to watch.

message two: I see what you did there and I like it.

message three: —Jerry Falwell, Jr.

 

[Gold*]

Most often the people that are lobbying for Judeo-Christian values (family and otherwise) seem to be the ones that have had multiple divorces, having cheated on their spouses.

This is an interesting twist in this year’s campaign. Biden has really talked about his faith. Trump obviously has none, but gets support from the people who claim to really believe.

I think the reality is more complex. At some point you have to wonder if the evangelicals wake up or if their world view is really just a succession of morally relativistic decisions meant to protect their racial and economic hegemony. I think it’s the latter.

 

[TU_BLA]

This is an interesting twist in this year’s campaign. Biden has really talked about his faith. Trump obviously has none, but gets support from the people who claim to really believe.

I think the reality is more complex. At some point you have to wonder if the evangelicals wake up or if their world view is really just a succession of morally relativistic decisions meant to protect their racial and economic hegemony. I think it’s the latter.

Winner winner, chicken dinner. Biden's faith is always questioned because he doesn't allow it to drive his politics. It drives his personal morality and life choices but he understands the people he represents do not all hold the same ideals and pushing his faith on them because he has a vote in that process is not right or just at all. There are some very dangerous legislators in Oklahoma who don't understand this. They are looking to turn the State and the country into a monotheistic state with their policy making and it directly contradicts why the pilgrims came here (BTW, look up the denomination the pilgrims were a part of and see what it has morphed into today...it is one of the most progressive Christian denominations today). And Biden has been criticized by the Catholic church because of he has elected to keep his political viewpoints and his personal faith separate. But this is exactly why he can show compassion to all his constituents and not be in the pocket of anyone group (like the GOP is in with the evangelicals).

 

[GoldenCaneKC]

In case anyone out there is interested in reading why/how a devout Christian could support Trump, here’s an article on that topic from a very well-respected Protestant theologian: https://townhall.com/columnists/way...ter-to-an-antitrump-christian-friend-n2573909

 

[astonmartin708]

In case anyone out there is interested in reading why/how a devout Christian could support Trump, here’s an article on that topic from a very well-respected Protestant theologian: https://townhall.com/columnists/way...ter-to-an-antitrump-christian-friend-n2573909

That guy is coocoo for coco puffs. I didn't need to read further than the fact that he voted for Goldwater and Nixon to know that. He's willing to disregard all sorts of moral and character flaws. He also makes a bunch of fallacious or misleading logical leaps when describing the Democratic agenda and makes absolutely zero logical inferences when talking about the Republican agenda. Much like Falwell actually.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

In case anyone out there is interested in reading why/how a devout Christian could support Trump, here’s an article on that topic from a very well-respected Protestant theologian: https://townhall.com/columnists/way...ter-to-an-antitrump-christian-friend-n2573909

How is that justification of his actions anything but that. In talking about his character, he says it is a judgement call. It is not a judgement call when viewing someone who has never had any faith. It is not a judgement call when viewing someone who has never even professed a belief in family values much less ever acted on those nonexistent values. There apparently is not a man out there who would meet this author's standards for bad character. I could continue about the justifications and character assessments, but it's not worth the effort.

I am convinced by his arguments that he would support satan over a democrat and go through hoops to justify it. It enlightens and intellectually edifies me, to see someone convinced by these arguments. It helps me to realize the flawed arguments that someone will let influence them.

 

[astonmartin708]

The guy also completely disregards the fact that Trump surrounds himself, frequently, with people who commit crimes or people he has to fire due to incompetence or people that lashed out over disgust with his administration's policies.

 

[shon46]

Apparently the modern evangelical concept of marriage is that it is "Between a Man and a Woman... and another Man..."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-with-evangelical-power-couple-idUSKBN25K1ZO

This is the kind of crap that makes me say that lots of "Christians" are Christian in name only. Let's add it to the list of Embezzlement, Pedophilia, and Militarism that we've seen from certain Church Leaders over the past 30-40 years. Makes me sad for the actual people out there who try and follow the teachings of Christ to have to be associated with these guys.

What rock have you lived under the last 5 or 6 hundred yrs or so! You act like the church was pure and now all of a sudden it has been corrupted. Another Dumb Thread to self aggrandize. Wait until the Cancel Culture catches up with you! Your tune won’t be the same......I promise!